Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

[Cleon]

The main changes, as I see 'em, will be:

• Boosting Dex and/or Cha instead of Str (incorporeal) and Con (both)
• Improving deflection bonus rather than natural armor (incorporeal)
• Boosting undead-specific attacks (energy drain, ability camage, etc.)
• The manueverability should not drop for incorporeal creatures

I'm thinking some of those should be folded in the standard template.

Ability damage (which is +1 letter better than ability camage ) is already included in the Increased Damage special ability

I'd rather add Energy Drain and other attacks to the Increased Damage ability too. My first though was simply doubling the energy drain, like we double the Gargantua's regeneration and fast healing. That could get rather nasty though...

Similarly, we could say the flying manoeuvrability remains unchanged for creatures that fly using (Su) or (Sp) means, including incorporeal creatures.

 

[Cleon]

Here's a quick list - the entries themselves are much bigger - just a line for each creature noting AC, HD attacks etc.

Checking the Immortal Set the Orcus's gargantuan undead and Demogorgon's gargantuan reptiles just apply the Companion set's gargantua rules to standard undead and (giant) reptiles, so not much to go on their.

In response to your comments
#1 As a template that adds HD grants additionial skill points and feats, I assumed that the same applies to ability scores - could be wrong though.

Well it doesn't say that anywhere in the SRDs "Reading a Template" that I can see.

The closest I can find to a rule is the Ability Score Improvement entry:

Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

Now, the Hit Dice the sample Gargantua are their "racial Hit Dice" aren't they? In which case, they shouldn't get ability increase on top of what the template gives them.

#2 Well it doesn't need the additional, but...
*SNIP*

Regarding incorporeal creatures/undead etc.
Maybe a note that incorporeal creatures add the modifier to Dex rather than Str. Likewise for deflection in regards to natural armor.

Undead could add to Cha rather than Con.

Although incorporeal undead will obviously get both bonuses to their AC.

Regards
Mortis

I'm toying with the idea of giving all the Undead Gargantuas Unholy Toughness, and the Construct Gargantua's a special "extra bonus hit points" special quality...

Which they both really really need, obviously.

 

[Shade]

Ability damage (which is +1 letter better than ability camage ) is already included in the Increased Damage special ability

Well that one was easy.

I'd rather add Energy Drain and other attacks to the Increased Damage ability too. My first though was simply doubling the energy drain, like we double the Gargantua's regeneration and fast healing. That could get rather nasty though...

Yeah, too nasty. In fact, I'm not convince energy drain should increase. Bigger undead don't necessarily drain more levels (in fact, higher-CR undead often don't drain more levels than weaker ones).

Similarly, we could say the flying manoeuvrability remains unchanged for creatures that fly using (Su) or (Sp) means, including incorporeal creatures.

That makes good sense!

I'm toying with the idea of giving all the Undead Gargantuas Unholy Toughness, and the Construct Gargantua's a special "extra bonus hit points" special quality...

Which they both really really need, obviously.

Yeah...probably not.

 

[Mortis]

In fact, I'm not convince energy drain should increase. Bigger undead don't necessarily drain more levels (in fact, higher-CR undead often don't drain more levels than weaker ones).

Agreed, the extra HD bump up the saves to make even the lower amount nasty to survive.

I also agree with leaving flight manouevrabilty as is if Su or Sp.

Are we agreed on Dex using the Str increase and Cha using the Con increase? After suggesting that I'm beginning to think that it's probably too much of a bonus for Dex. Maybe both Dex and Cha could use the Con rate?

Regarding the suggestion of an 'improved deflection bonus' - do any other creatures have something similar that we can borrow from? If not, something based on their base Reflx save or HD?

Regards
Mortis

 

[Shade]

Are we agreed on Dex using the Str increase and Cha using the Con increase? After suggesting that I'm beginning to think that it's probably too much of a bonus for Dex. Maybe both Dex and Cha could use the Con rate?

Yeah, the Str boost is probably too much. The Con bonus for both Dex and Cha seems a reasonable extrapolation.

Regarding the suggestion of an 'improved deflection bonus' - do any other creatures have something similar that we can borrow from? If not, something based on their base Reflx save or HD?

Time for Shade to go hunting. It's Precedent Season.

 

[freyar]

Good luck!

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, the Str boost is probably too much. The Con bonus for both Dex and Cha seems a reasonable extrapolation.

I'm not so sure about that, cConsider the difference between the SRD's Wraith and Dread Wraith:

Wraith: Medium 5HD Undead; Str Ø, Dex 16, Con Ø, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Dread Wraith: Large 16 HD Undead; Str Ø, Dex 28, Con Ø, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 24

The Dread's got 3.2 times the HD, +12 Dex, +3 Int, +4 Wis and +9 Cha compared to the regular Wraith and is a size larger. That's a Dex-boost higher than the Charisma-boost.

Our Gargantua is three sizes larger and has 8 times the HD, so maxing out at +24 Dex doesn't seem that bad.

However, instead of the regular Gargantua's 100% more Str than Con I'd prefer having the ghostly versions top off at 50% more Dex than Cha, e.g.:


Incorporeal Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table
Size of . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability. Trample
Base Creature .. Dex . Cha . Area .. Damage . Damage
Fine . . . . . . +12 .. +10 .. ×6 .. +1d10 . . . 2d8
Diminutive . . . +14 .. +10 .. ×5 . . +2d4 . . . 2d8
Tiny . . . . . . +16 .. +10 .. ×5 . . +1d8 . . . 2d8
Small. . . . . . +16 .. +10 .. ×4 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium . . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×4 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large . . .. . . +18 .. +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge . . . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×3 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8

What thinks ye?

 

[freyar]

Looks fine enough, but always so complex!

 

[Cleon]

Looks fine enough, but always so complex!

You say that like needless complexity is a bad thing...

Come to think of it, there is another change we should make to that Table: an incorporeal creature probably shouldn't have a Trample attack.

 

[Shade]

Come to think of it, there is another change we should make to that Table: an incorporeal creature probably shouldn't have a Trample attack.

Probably true.

Updated.

I was unable to find any precedents for improving existing deflection bonuses. Shall we add a column to Cleon's table? Maybe deflection bonus improves by the same amount as its size modifier?