Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

[BOZ]

another thought... anyone with a ghost touch weapon would quickly make mincemeat of a G.P. however, giving it the DR/silver would give it some protection from attacks like that.

I would argue that as they don't/cannot move or physically act then they shouldn't have a Dex score either.

So that just leaves Wis and Cha. I would suggest Wis 20 and Cha 16.

Wis and Cha sound good to me. we can debate on the Dex score, but Shade tells me he will out for a few days so i don't want to get too deep until he comes back.

Skills: Depending on an Int score of 13 or 14 it should have 60 or 72 skill points, but as it just sits there contemplating, I would suggest that it wouldn't have any skills. If it did, I would suggest Concentration (even if it has no rules benefit), and Knowledge skills.

you're probably right. it should get skills if for no other reason than to be rules-compliant.

Feats: With 9 HD it is due 4 feats, but what to give it? Possibly Toughness x4? Great Fortitude is worth a look as well.

that's going to be even tougher than assigning skills. perhaps we can consider what feats other incorporeals have?

Environment: Any ruins - what would that equate to in 3.5?

From the D&D Rules Cyclopedia:

Ruins: These are ruined or abandonded buildings, artificial underground complexes (dungeons), tombs, crypts, graveyards, and similar desolate places.

So my guess would be Underground, although Any might work.

we can go with the old standard "Any land and underground" and list those other ideas in the flavor text.


as for the Malice, in a lot of ways, it is a separate secondary creature, so i'd rather deal with it as such. let's set out the basics for the philosopher (most of it at least), then work on the malce. it shouldn't take long to figure out the GP, since it doesn't have a lot going on for itself.

 

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by Mortis

Feats: With 9 HD it is due 4 feats, but what to give it? Possibly Toughness x4? Great Fortitude is worth a look as well.

that's going to be even tougher than assigning skills. perhaps we can consider what feats other incorporeals have?

Besides Toughness, I'd recommend...

Ability Focus (dying cry/scream) and/or Ability Focus (create malice).

Diehard and Endurance (a bit of a streatch).

Other than that there isn't a whole lot of options for an incorporeal creature that doesn't physically move. It is an undead cleric, so perhaps it could have some spellcasting abilities that don't require it to move. These would be spell-like abilities, or perhaps its spellcasting becomes supernatural in an undead state.

Another option, is to create a more useful Gray Philospher Template with options for philosphers that move or don't move. The template can only be added onto a cleric.

Just some thoughts,

KF72

 

[Mortis]

Other than that there isn't a whole lot of options for an incorporeal creature that doesn't physically move. It is an undead cleric, so perhaps it could have some spellcasting abilities that don't require it to move. These would be spell-like abilities, or perhaps its spellcasting becomes supernatural in an undead state.

Well that's the problem, isn't it. Not only does it not move it doesn't do ANYTHING except think - no spells or spell-like abilities

Another option, is to create a more useful Gray Philospher Template with options for philosphers that move or don't move. The template can only be added onto a cleric.

We could have some variants opf the gray philosopher after we've done the original. One idea I've previously mentioned was have the actual gray philosopher body as an illusion with its essence actually contained in the chair.

Regards
Mortis

 

[Mortis]

that's going to be even tougher than assigning skills. perhaps we can consider what feats other incorporeals have?

Allip: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Shadow: Alertness, Dodge
Greater Shadow: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Spectre: Alertness, Blind-fight, Improved Initiative
Wraith: Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Dread Wraith: Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Incorporeal Touch), Mobility, Spring Attack

Not much help really, they're very much combat focused feats.

we can go with the old standard "Any land and underground" and list those other ideas in the flavor text.

It might be better to go with Any (underwater ruins etc) and list the ideas in the flavour text.

as for the Malice, in a lot of ways, it is a separate secondary creature, so i'd rather deal with it as such. let's set out the basics for the philosopher (most of it at least), then work on the malce. it shouldn't take long to figure out the GP, since it doesn't have a lot going on for itself.

Agreed. What about my idea of giving the gray philosopher a Special Quality that enables it to grant its feats and skill points to the malices as well as its BAB?

Regards
Mortis

 

[Shade]

Checking in quickly in the short time I've got today...

For feats, I'd recommend all the saving throw booster feats (Iron Will, etc.) as this poor fella needs survivability first and foremost.

For skills, any of the Knowledge skills, since it is a philosopher, after all.

Definitely DR/magic and silver.

Did we look at the presence/wisps conversion we did awhile back for inspiration?

 

[Shade]

Abilities: As undead and incorporeal the philosopher gets no Con or Str score.

I would argue that as they don't/cannot move or physically act then they shouldn't have a Dex score either.

Int as given in the previous editions would be in the range 13-14.

So that just leaves Wis and Cha. I would suggest Wis 20 and Cha 16.

I'm in agreement with all the suggested mental stats.

I disagree on the Dex, however. Even though they are immobile, I get the impression that is because they choose to be immobile. That shouldn't prohibit their reactions. Essentially, the only things they are going to be using Dex for are Initiative and Reflex saves. Since they are already awfully vulnerable, I'd hate to make their Reflex so poor that they are even more so.

Here's what the Monster Types & Overview states:

Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

So the Init isn't really an issue, after all. But the auto fail of Reflex saves is a biggee.

I'd suggest either giving them Dex 12-14, or giving them sufficient spell resistance to handle all those auto-fails.

Thoughts?

 

[Mortis]

I'm in agreement with all the suggested mental stats.

I disagree on the Dex, however. Even though they are immobile, I get the impression that is because they choose to be immobile. That shouldn't prohibit their reactions. Essentially, the only things they are going to be using Dex for are Initiative and Reflex saves. Since they are already awfully vulnerable, I'd hate to make their Reflex so poor that they are even more so.

Here's what the Monster Types & Overview states:

So the Init isn't really an issue, after all. But the auto fail of Reflex saves is a biggee.

That's just it. They DON'T react so IMHO they should automatically fail their Reflex saves.

If they just sit there as someone hacks at them with a ghost touch weapon, they're not likely to leap out of the way of a fireball.

... giving them sufficient spell resistance to handle all those auto-fails.

However, even though they didn't get MR in 2e, I'm not adverse to giving them SR.

Regards
Mortis

 

[Shade]

OK, you've convinced me that SR is the better solution.

 

[Mortis]

OK, you've convinced me that SR is the better solution.

Naturally

SR = CR + 10? Although due to its unreactive, non-threatening state I see its CR as being rather low.

I was going to suggest Improved Spell Resistance as a feat but its an Epic feat.

I think we need to get what we've got in one place.

One thing I've been doing for the Mystara monsters converted on the WotC boards is add a MMIV style monster lore section (a part of MMIV that I liked). You can find the Grey Philosopher entry here.

Regards
Mortis

 

[Mortis]

So far we have and suggestions

Gray Philosopher
Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 9d12+27+3 (85 88hp)
Initiative: +2 (+2 Int)
Speed : 0 ft. (0 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+3 deflection, +3 profane), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/-
Attack: -
Full Attack: -
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Shriek of Fear
Special Qualities: Create malices, damage reduction magic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., death's grace, immunity to turning, incorporeal traits, spell resistance 10+X, undead traits, unholy toughness
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +11
Abilities: Str -, Dex 10, Con -, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 16
Skills: 72 (6 skills at +12 + bonuses gives Concentration +12, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Knowledge (the planes) +14)
Feats: 4 Ability Focus (Dying Scream), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always (Usually) neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: -

Create Malices: Number of malices based on age/hd of philosopher.

Death's Grace (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a +1 profane bonus to AC for every 3 Hit Dice it possesses.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

Shriek of Fear (Su): At the moment of a gray philosopher’s death, it unleashes a horrifying shriek. Living creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or take X points of Dexterity damage (drain) and be shaken. The shaken effect can be removed from a creature with a remove fear or remove curse spell. The save DC is Charisma-based.

I think that's about it.

Regards
Mortis