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Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin

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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Just use the advancement line? Fair enough. So should we start with Small and 2 HD (or drop to 1HD)?
 

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Shade

Monster Junkie
Let's drop to 1 HD for the possum-sized version.

Wikipedia said:
Pound for pound, the Marsupial Lion had the strongest bite of any mammal species living or extinct; a 100 kg (220 lb) individual had a bite comparable to that of a 250 kg (550 lb) African Lion and is thought to have hunted large animals such as diprotodonts and giant kangaroos. It was the most specialised marsupial carnivore to have ever existed and had extremely strong forelimbs, with retractable claws, a trait previously unseen in marsupials. It was also armed with sharp carnassial teeth that could tear large chunks of meat off its prey, powered by very strong jaw muscles. In this it differed from placental carnivores which possess 'canine' teeth. Its strong forelimbs, retracting claws and incredibly powerful jaws mean that it may have been possible for it to climb trees and perhaps to carry carcasses to keep the kill for itself (similar to the leopard today).
So, it looks like Improved Natural Attack (like a tiger, except for bite instead of claw) and possibly augmented critical?

Climb speed or decent racial bonus to Climb?

The interactive tutorial at this link seems to indicate scent, pounce, and possibly improved grab.

And check out this:

"New research published in the Journal of Zoology suggests that Thylacoleo killed prey rapidly, using its “bolt-cutter” type teeth to scissor through hide and flesh to produce major trauma and blood loss."
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Yes to Imp Nat Atk and augmented crit.

Racial climb bonus, I think. Doesn't quite sound like we're sure it had a climb speed.

Let's go with scent and pounce.

Might be even better to forget about Imp Nat Atk and just up the damage to a ridiculous amount, given that last bit.
 

demiurge1138

Inventor of Super-Toast
Yeah. I'm never a fan of giving Imp. Natural Attack to a baseline creature, so let's just give them a high bite damage. I do like the idea of augmented critical.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Alrighty.

Let's figure out ability scores.

Dowsizing a smilodon to Small yields...
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

Dowsizing a tiger to Small yields...
Str 11, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Dowsizing a lion to Small yields...
Str 11, Dex 21, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Downsizing a leopard to Small yields...
Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

An already Small lynx has...
Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

An already Small serval has...
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Since it could supposedly take a smilodon in battle, perhaps use the downsized smilodon physical stats so it is a match when advanced to Large? We could just go with the typical lion's mental stats. Thoughts?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Let's use the smilodon's stats but make half of them odd. So Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6?
 


freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Good point. I think this is due to the fact that we're starting with the Small version. For example, all the big cats have Dex > Str when downsized to Small (see Shade's post above). This is actually closer to equal than most of them. Still, we could go Str 16, Dex 17 if you want.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
freyar said:
Let's use the smilodon's stats but make half of them odd. So Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6?
I'm just curious, but is there a half-even/half-odd suggested guideline somewhere, or is that just your personal preference?

I note that most official creatures do follow that formula, but not all.

Just curious. ;)

demiurge1138 said:
It strikes me as strange that its Dex is higher than its Str. I'd always imagined Thacyleo as a big bruiser.
Yeah, that's the odd thing about trying to cover these with a single stat block. Maybe we'd be better off not starting Small and expecting size advancement to cover the various types. Perhaps we should do like the big cats, and stat one out for each size, where the ability scores don't follow the usual size advancement rules. Thoughts?
 

demiurge1138

Inventor of Super-Toast
Ah. I missed the Small bit. Having a small and medium marsupial lion would probably be wise, although there won't be many changes aside from size advancement that we'll need to make, I imagine.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Shade said:
I'm just curious, but is there a half-even/half-odd suggested guideline somewhere, or is that just your personal preference?

I note that most official creatures do follow that formula, but not all.

Just curious. ;)
Hmm, I guess I thought the standard array was three 10s and three 11s, though now I look in the SRD it doesn't actually say that. Well, chalk it up to preference, then. ;)

Well, let's get the small one right first, and then we can decide about how to get the Medium one.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
OK, so how about we craft the entry with three stat blocks:

Small (Priscileo)
Medium (Wakaleo)
Large (Thylacoleo)

Let's hammer out the ability scores for each size and then I'll Homebrew 'em.

Suggestions?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Small: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ?
Medium: Str 21, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ?
Large: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ?

I used WotC's trick of not quite doing the size advancement properly. ;)
 

demiurge1138

Inventor of Super-Toast
The Str score on the Large is a little much. OK, a lot much--that's stronger than a dire bear! I say tone it down to Str 25 and I approve.

But then again, the Con is lower... if Shade's in favor of Str 29, I could easily be persuaded. Big punch, little staying power.

Demiurge out.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
If we drop Str on the Large to 25, we should probably drop it on all 3. One point in favor of higher Str is that this thing is supposed to have the strongest bite of any mammal species ever (pound for pound). But let's come to a consensus. I just worked by starting with 15 at Small, +4 to Medium and bump by 2, then +8 to Large. Could get rid of that bump by 2, but then it's just normal advancement.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Yeah, lets drop the Str to 25. That's still a point higher than the smilodon, and I agree that the dire bear should be the king of the Str.

We can simulate the powerful bite via augmented critical and a greater bite damage for its size, without overdoing its overall body strength.

I'm fine with keeping small at 15 and Medium at 21, even with the Large "only" at 25.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Eh, let's drop the Medium to 19 in that case. That makes a little more sense to me. Augmented crit and a higher damage for the bite works.

Don't usually see you here at night... :)
 


Shade

Monster Junkie
I'm traveling for work tomorrow, so won't be dropping in, so figured I'd get in some converting now. ;)

I added the Medium sized one to Homebrews.
 


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