Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin

[Rappy]

I'm definitely not a fan of making it humanoid!

Monstrous humanoid, then?

In seriousness, we could either stick to the rules or we could take a page from Goodman Games's book (the Broncosaurus Rex books, to be precise ) and flub the rules a bit to get a smarter chimp.

 

[Cleon]

Monstrous humanoid, then?

In seriousness, we could either stick to the rules or we could take a page from Goodman Games's book (the Broncosaurus Rex books, to be precise ) and flub the rules a bit to get a smarter chimp.

Chimpanzees are always breaking the rules. They're all cheetahs, you know.

Well personally I'm happy to houserule and would just give them Int 6, Animal Type be damned, but its probably better to stick to the Rules-As-Written, if only to keep everyone on the same page. Making them Humanoid seemed a compromise solution - a chimp isn't any further from a human than a gnoll, after all. But if you don't like the idea, I guess they'll have to end up dumb Int 2 animals.

Oh, and I don't see how they can be Monstrous Humanoids. Chimps don't have darkvision!

 

[Cleon]

While your reasoning makes sense, it also creates all kinds of havoc with the Str 22 dire ape!

Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.

 

[Rappy]

Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.

Trying to judge D&D animal strength compared to reality is like taking a makeup test...you either grin and bear it or furiously try to rewrite the rules.

...Wait, that didn't make any sense at all...

And yes, gnolls are humanoids, although I never quite understood it.

 

[freyar]

Why don't we stick to Int 2 animal and hope Pathfinder fixes that rule?

Dunno what to do about the dire ape. Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it. We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.

 

[Cleon]

Dunno what to do about the dire ape. Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it. We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.

Yes, I'd just forget about it as far as out chimp/gorilla conversions go.

Besides, I wouldn't use the SRD version of the Dire Ape. I've statted up an alternative "Building a Better Monster" version I like better, based on my homebrew attempt at a Dire Animal template (it's a bit tougher than the official monster, with 8HD and Str 25, but that's a story for another day).

 

[Shade]

Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.

OK, I can agre with that. SRD dire ape = bad example.

And yes, gnolls are humanoids, although I never quite understood it.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Bugbears are pushing the limits in my opinion, but a hyena-headed, demon-worshiping thing seems monstrous to me. I've also never understood why they lack bite attacks. <shrug>

Why don't we stick to Int 2 animal and hope Pathfinder fixes that rule?

Agreed. If the dolphin and pig are stuck with Int 2, so's the chimp. And no stretch of the imagination can make dolphins humanoids!

Dunno what to do about the dire ape. Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it. We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.

If the theoretical reworked dire ape is Str 25 (on par with hill giant), I'd rather the gorilla be closer to the ogre (Str 21).

 

[Cleon]

OK, I can agre with that. SRD dire ape = bad example.

If the theoretical reworked dire ape is Str 25 (on par with hill giant), I'd rather the gorilla be closer to the ogre (Str 21).

Oh that's just what came out when I applied my homebrew template to the SRD dire ape, I wouldn't put much into that. If I was reworking it from scratch I'd probably be tempted to give it something a bit higher.

Besides, I like my carnivorous apes to have semi-human attributes, like the monstrous man-apes in Conan stories, or the numerous movie killer apes that have a certain resemblance to stuntment in suits. For AD&D examples, the Jim Holloway illustration for Dragon #133's The Ecology of the Carnivorous Ape is a good example of how I imagine the Dire Ape.

As for gorilla strength, unfortunately there's even less info out there than for chimpanzees. I've seen estimates ranging from four times a human's to twenty seven times a human's, but have been unable to find anything with much actual evidence to back it up. Assuming a human is Str 10, that's anywhere from Str 20 to Str 34. Add those together and average them and you get ... Strength 27, or about ten times stronger than a human.

Which, by a remarkable coincidence, is the Strength I'm suggesting.

 

[freyar]

Let's go with Str 15 for the chimp and 21 for the gorilla, just to line up with the ogre. I mean, an ogre should really be an evolved gorilla, right?

 

[demiurge1138]

Again, realism is not exactly what D&D is all about. Considering the precedent, gorillas with ogre strength work for me, and I'm okay with chimps at 15-16.