Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin

[Cleon]

If you like, but I don't really mind much either way.

Updating the Boobrie Working Draft.

So are we done with these?

 

[freyar]

Looks like it! Did we have anything "urgent" for this thread?

 

[Cleon]

Looks like it! Did we have anything "urgent" for this thread?

Nothing springs to mind.

We could do the Tren or Volheller, I suppose, although they're no more real than the Boobrie and have the additional disadvantage of being spectacularly uninteresting (as in "they rarely eat adventurers").

So, do you want to let this thread rest for a while?

 

[Cleon]

Arise thread!

We need to update the Enworld conversion of the Giant Snapping Turtle to 3.5 since we're listing it as a summonable creature for the Grandfather-of-all-the-Turtles.

The Giant Snapping Turtle first appeared in the original 1977 Monster Manual with the following stats:

Turtle, Snapping, Giant
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 0/5
MOVE: 3”//2”
HIT DICE: 10
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Turtle, Snapping, Giant: Feared greatly for their voracious appetite and aggressiveness, giant snapping turtles are found in lakes and large rivers. They lurk near shore or on the bottom, as they do not swim quickly. They remain motionless, thus surprising on 1-4 (out of 6), and then shoot forth their long neck (up to 10' long) to grab their prey. The head and limbs of these monsters are armor class 5, but they can be withdrawn to offer armor class 2.

Originally appeared in Monster Manual (1977).

The 2nd edition AD&D version is basically the same:

Turtle, Snapping, Giant
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Lake or river
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 0/5
MOVEMENT: 3, Sw 2
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, jaws
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hide limbs
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (40’ diam.)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Feared greatly for their voracious appetite and aggressiveness, giant snapping turtles are found in large lakes and rivers. Many myths about lake monsters were born out of sightings of these relatively common freshwater creatures.

They lurk near shore or on the bottom, they do not swim quickly. There they remain motionless, causing a –3 penalty to opponents’ surprise rolls. They then shoot forth their long necks (up to ten feet away) to grab their prey. Once a victim is bitten (for 6d4 points of damage), he is invariably grabbed by the powerful jaws. Only a successful bend bars/lift gates roll frees one from the vicious mouth, as spells cannot be cast or weapons used at these times. Meanwhile, bite damage is automatic on each round while grabbed. When the victim goes unconscious, the giant snapping turtle throws back its head, gently tossing the victim into the air a few feet, then down into the open gullet of the beast.

The lightly plated heads and limbs of these monsters are AC 5 when extended, but the shell affords AC 0 protection to the body, and to the limbs if retracted.

Originally appeared in MC5 Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix (1990).

There's also a BECMI version, with is considerable bigger:

Giant Swamp Snapping Turtle
Armor Class: 0
Hit Dice: 20
Move: 30’ (10’)
Swimming: 90’ (30’)
Attacks: 1 bite + special
Damage: 6-36
No. Appearing: 0 (1)
Save As: Fighter: 12
Morale: 10
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 4,175

This ornery swamp creature can be mistaken for a dragon turtle at a glance, though it is smaller and actually has few dragon traits. Among other things, it does not collect treasure nor does it breathe anything.

However, like a purple worm, if its attack roll is 4 or more over what it needs to hit its target, or a 20 in any case, creatures of mansize or smaller are swallowed whole, taking 3-18 points of damage each round thereafter.

The main tactic of the giant snapping turtle is to wait by a main waterway, looking like a hummock of ground. As a boat passes, it snaps its head out of the shell and reaches as much as 30’ for one of the occupants of the boat. Once it has either taken a bite out of a victim or swallowed him whole, its head snaps back into the shell and it depends on its armored back for protection.

Originally found in CM9 - Legacy of Blood (1987).

 

[Cleon]

To begin with, I don't think there's enough differences between the AD&D Giant Snapping Turtle and the BECMI Giant Snapping Swamp Turtle to justify us converting them as separate creatures. I think we should consider the BECMI Giant Snapper as an AD&D Giant Snapper that has advanced a size category, since that neatly fits its doubled HD.

While the BECMI "Swamp Snapper" has a Swallow Whole attack, the flavour text of the AD&D version says they swallow prey whole too - they just wait until their victims are unconscious.

For the stats, we should bear in mind the Stormwrack Snapping Turtle and the Enworld conversion of the Sea Turtle and Giant Snapping Turtle.

Here's the relevant stats:

Enworld Sea Turtle, Giant (3.5 Edition)
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+48 (84 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+23
Attack: Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Capsize
Special Qualities: Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision, withdraw
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 7, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Spot +12, Swim +19
Feats: Endurance, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-14 HD (Huge); 15-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Enworld Turtle, Giant Snapping (3.0 Edition)
Gargantuan Beast
Hit Dice: 10d10+70 (125 hp)
Initiative: -2 Dex
Speed: 10 ft, swim 20 ft
AC: 20 (-4 size, -2 Dex, +16 natural)
Attacks: Bite +14 melee
Damage: Bite 2d8+11
Face/Reach: 40 ft by 40 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
Skills: Swim +21
Climate/Terrain: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or band (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-19 HD (Gargantuan); 20-30 HD (Colossal)

Stormwrack Snapping Turtle
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, –1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Spot +6, Swim +9
Feats: Improved Natural Armorᴮ, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate marshes
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3–4 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

 

[Cleon]

To begin with, the Giant Snapping Turtle is somewhat smaller than the Giant Sea Turtle. In AD&D the former has a 50 ft. shell diameter and the latter a 40 ft. shell diameter.

I think we should make the Enworld conversion Huge with a 12 ft to 20 ft. diameter shell so it keeps the same size comparison to the Enworld Giant Sea Turtle conversion.

We should give it a Swallow Whole attack as well as Improved Grab. If we set the swallow whole to 3 size categories, only an advanced Gargantuan turtle will be able to swallow human-sized victims, which'll allow us to limit that attack to a 20+ HD turtle in honor of the BECMI Giant Snapping Swamp Turtle.

We should also consider the stats of the Stormwrack Snapping Turtle. If we ignore the Improved Natural Armor bonus feat (which is completely pointless) and advance the turtle to Huge size, it comes out as:

Stormwrack Snapping Turtle, Huge-ified
Huge Animal
Initiative: –4
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), swim 20 ft.
Attack: Bite +?? melee (2d6+16)
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, –4 Dex, +10 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 14
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with bite?)
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 2, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4

Some of those numbers are pretty close to the Enworld Giant Sea Turtle and 3.0 Giant Snapper, but some look like they'll need tweaking.

 

[freyar]

Your proposed size sounds fine. Stick to 10HD?

 

[Cleon]

Your proposed size sounds fine. Stick to 10HD?

That was the plan.

Might as well begin a Working Draft.

Any preferences for the rest of the stats?

The AD&D Giant Snapper does 50% more damage with its bite than a Giant Sea Turtle, so we should consider giving it an impressive damage.

Maybe 4d6, the same as a Dragon Turtle?

 

[Cleon]

Giant Snapping Turtle Working Draft

Turtle, Giant Snapping
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+70 (125 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 10 ft. (2 square), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 25 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +19 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+26
Attack: Bite +17 melee (4d6+16/19–20)
Full Attack: Bite +17 melee (4d6+16/19–20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: Capsize, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision, withdraw
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Hide –1* (+11 in swamps, +21 motionless), Spot +5, Listen +5, Swim +19
Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate marshes
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11–19 HD (Huge); 20–30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

A massive turtle with a wickedly hooked beak. It's so big it resembles a small upturned ship.

Enormous relatives of ordinary freshwater turtles, giant snapping turtles are found in swamps, large lakes, and rivers. They are aggressive and have a voracious appetite. Most prefer to hunt fish at the bottom of whatever body of water they inhabit, but some will lurk near shore paths and waterways and grab surface prey. Their necks are so long they can easily snatch victims from off boats.

A typically giant snapping turtle measures about 30 feet from snout to tail, with a shell up to 20 feet across, and weighs at least 15 tons. The oldest and largest specimens can have shells 40 feet in diameter and look like hummocks of ground when lurking in shallow water.

COMBAT
A giant snapping turtle will remain motionless until a suitable victim wanders within reach, then shoots forth its long neck and tries to grab the prospective meal. If a grabbed opponent is small enough to swallow with a grapple check, the turtle immediately tries to gulp them down. Opponents too large to be swiftly swallowed are bitten repeatedly until they are rendered unconscious and can be swallowed whole or torn into bite-sized pieces. The easiest way to avoid this fate is to flee the slow-moving turtle, although this will prove challenging for anyone the turtle's hooked its beak into.

These reptiles are exceedingly hardy fighters who are willing to face severe injuries for a good meal. If a giant snapping turtle faces an overpowering enemy, it tends to withdraw its shell rather than flee.

Capsize (Ex): A submerged giant snapping turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.

Fortification (Ex): Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a giant snapping turtle there is a 75% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the effect of armor enchanted with the Moderate Fortification quality. This chance increases to 100% when the turtle withdraws its appendages into its shell.

Hold Breath (Ex): A giant snapping turtle can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical giant snapping turtle, this is 250 rounds, or 25 minutes.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the giant snapping turtle must hit with its bite attack. If it gets a hold, it automatically deals bite damage and can attempt to swallow the opponent.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant snapping turtle can try to swallow a grabbed opponent up to 3 sizes smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. It can also swallow a non-resisting creature 2 sizes smaller than itself as a full round action. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+16 points of crushing damage plus 2d8 points of acid damage per round from the giant snapping turtle's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the giant snapping turtle’s gut (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge giant snapping turtle's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine opponents.

Withdraw (Ex): A giant snapping turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the turtle cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the turtle heavy fortification, giving it 100% resistance to critical hits.

Skills: A giant snapping turtle has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A snapping turtle can use its Dexterity modifier or its Strength modifier on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A giant snapping turtle gains a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in swampy terrain. Further, a giant snapping turtle can lie motionless in the water, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.

 

[freyar]

The physical ability scores from the 3.0 CC version don't look bad, actually, though I could bump the Con to 27 if you prefer.

A 4d6 bite sounds good!