Converting skill tricks to expanded uses of skills and new feats

frankthedm

First Post
With the release of the Complete scoundrel, the concept of skill tricks has seen much adoration and also much derision. I’ll admit being on the side of they look & smell like feats. But maybe they are salvageable for those who are not intrested in giving the rogue more or less free pseudo feats. The section in the CS does have some really good ideas, so mayhap converting skill tricks to expanded uses of skills and feats has potential. Input please? [sblock=Skill Tricks intro]Skill tricks are an exciting new way of customizing your scoundrel, allowing her to perform such cinematic effects as swinging across a chasm hanging from a whip, leaping off a warhorse while swinging a sword, jumping and running up a wall, and other similar actions popular in movies but until now unsupported in the D&D rules. Because they require the expenditure of skill points, skill tricks appeal most strongly to members of those character classes that focus on skills.

The four types of skill tricks are interaction, manipulation, mental, and movement. Each type focuses on a different subset of skills. While any character can learn tricks of any type, members of certain classes favor particular types of tricks (whether due to the class's skill list, the character's areas of expertise, or both).
Interaction: These skill tricks influence social interaction between PCs and NPCs. They typically rely on skills used in those situations, such as Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. Bards are the most common masters of these skill tricks, but anyone who relies on social interaction to achieve their goals -- from bold paladins to boisterous sorcerers -- can benefit from them.

Manipulation: A manipulation skill trick depends on the character's manual dexterity to perform some act of legerdemain. Such tricks use skills that employ similar talents, including Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand. Rogues and ninjas often boast a few manipulation tricks in their repertoire.
Mental: These tricks pit the mind and senses of the character against an opponent. Mental tricks focus on skills such as Concentration, Knowledge, and Spot. Since this category includes a wide range of skills, many different characters dabble in such tricks.

Movement: As the name suggests, movement tricks typically involve the character physically moving from one location to another. They use skills that come into play during movement, such as Balance, Jump, Move Silently, and Tumble. Monks, barbarians, and scouts are most likely to learn such tricks, but anyone looking for an edge on the battlefield has something to gain from them.

Learning Skill Tricks
Learning a skill trick costs 2 skill points. Whenever you acquire skill points, you can choose to spend skill points to acquire a skill trick instead of purchasing ranks in skills.

You can learn any skill trick, as long as you meet the prerequisite and can afford to expend 2 skill points. If you later no longer meet the prerequisite for a skill trick, you can't use it again until you once more qualify.

You can't learn more than one skill trick at any given level, and your total skill tricks cannot exceed one-half your character level (rounded up). Certain feats and prestige class features allow a character to exceed these limits. If you use the retraining rules in Player's Handbook II, you can choose to unlearn any one skill trick when you attain a new level, assigning the reclaimed skill points as you wish (either to buy skill ranks or to learn a different skill trick).
You can learn a skill trick only once; you either know it or you don't.[/sblock]
Table 3-2: Skill Tricks
Interaction~Prerequisites~Benefit
Assume Quirk~Disguise 5 ranks~Familiar viewers get no bonus to see through your disguise
Group Fake-Out~Bluff 8 ranks~Feint against multiple foes simultaneously
Never Outnumbered~Intimidate 8 ranks~Demoralize multiple foes in combat simultaneously
Second Impression~Bluff 5 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks~Make Bluff check to reestablish blown disguise
Social Recovery~Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks~Make Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check
Timely Misdirection~Bluff 8 ranks~Successful feint allows you to avoid attacks of opportunity

Manipulation~Prerequisites~Benefit
Clever Improviser~Disable Device 5 ranks, Open Lock 5 ranks~Ignore penalty for Disable Device and Open Lock checks made without tools
Conceal Spellcasting~Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank~Conceal your spellcasting from onlookers
Easy Escape~Medium or smaller size, Escape Artist 8 ranks~Gain bonus on check to escape grapple or pin
False Theurgy~Bluff or Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks~Your spell appears to be another spell of the same level
Healing Hands~Heal 5 ranks~Heal 1d6 damage when you stabilize a dying character
Hidden Blade~Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Quick Draw~Draw hidden weapon as move action; treat foe as flat-footed
Mosquito's Bite~Sleight of Hand 12 ranks~Flat-footed target does not notice damage you deal with a light weapon
Opening Tap~Open Lock 12 ranks~Open a lock as a swift action
Quick Escape~Escape Artist 12 ranks~Escape from grapple or restraints more quickly than normal
Shrouded Dance~Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks~Use move action to gain concealment for 1 round
Sudden Draw~Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Quick Draw~Draw hidden weapon as part of attack of opportunity
Whip Climber~Use Rope 5 ranks, proficiency with whip~Use a whip as a grappling hook

Mental~Prerequisites~Benefit
Clarity of Vision~Spot 12 ranks~Notice invisible enemies for 1 round
Collector of Stories~Knowledge (any) 5 ranks~Gain +5 bonus on Knowledge checks to identify monsters
Listen to This~Listen 5 ranks~Perfectly repeat what you've recently heard
Magical Appraisal~Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks~Determine properties of magic items
Point it Out~Spot 8 ranks~Grant ally a free Spot check to see something you've spotted
Spot the Weak Point~Spot 12 ranks~Make your next attack a touch attack
Swift Concentration~Concentration 12 ranks~Maintain concentration on spell as swift action

Movement~Prerequisites~Benefit
Acrobatic Backstab~Tumble 12 ranks~Move through foe's space to render it flat-footed
Back on Your Feet~Tumble 12 ranks~React immediately to stand up from prone
Corner Perch~Climb 8 ranks~Perch in chimney or corner to leave hands free
Dismount Attack~Ride 5 ranks~Make a fast dismount from moving mount to charge a foe
Escape Attack~Escape Artist 8 ranks~Make an attack the same round you escape a grapple
Extreme Leap~Jump 5 ranks~Horizontal jump of at least 10 feet allows 10 extra feet of movement that round
Leaping Climber~Climb 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks~Add jump distance to start of climb
Nimble Charge~Balance 5 ranks~Run or charge across difficult surface without Balance check
Nimble Stand~Tumble 8 ranks~Stand from prone safely
Quick Swimmer~Swim 5 ranks~Swim 10 additional feet with successful check
Slipping Past~Escape Artist 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Move into tight space without penalties
Speedy Ascent~Climb 5 ranks~Climb 10 additional feet with successful check
Tumbling Crawl~Tumble 5 ranks~Crawl 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity
Twisted Charge~Balance 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Make one direction change during a charge
Up the Hill~Balance 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks~Move up slope or stairs at normal speed
Walk the Walls~Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Run straight up wall for 1 round
Wall Jumper~Climb 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks~Leap from wall as if making a running jump
 

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Looks cool

I did not get the book yet. However, there is some talk in my gaming group about how useful they would be for my rogue/ sorcerer. The DM still needs a copy of the book to review it for balance. We had an issue with the complete mage ( at least that is what am told, I must have missed that session.)

Anything to make skills cooler, more useful, give it that bling factor is a plus in my book. I like it Frank.
 

Great! Let's brainstorm something about this.

For instance, let's start by taking a look at the prerequisite ranks: these ranks set the minimum level (ranks - 3 if it's a class skill) at which the character can take the trick.

Once the character takes the trick, it can be used with 100% success. Is it so or does it depend on the trick? Can someone with the book confirm this?

To be able to succeed automatically like the trick, a character must either have a total modifier of DC+19... OR DC+9 and use the Take10 option (not allowed in combat).

This doesn't translate immediately into ranks, because the total modifier benefits at least from the ability bonus, and possibly from spells & items, but what if we try to guesstimate at least a reasonable number?
 

Let's try DC = prerequisite Ranks + 15

Group 1 : req 5 ranks -> DC 20

Examples:

Second Impression~Bluff 5 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks~Make Bluff check to reestablish blown disguise
Whip Climber~Use Rope 5 ranks, proficiency with whip~Use a whip as a grappling hook
Listen to This~Listen 5 ranks~Perfectly repeat what you've recently heard
Slipping Past~Escape Artist 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Move into tight space without penalties

Sample chances: (1) assume max ranks, (2) first is the level at which a PC with no other bonuses would succeed with that probability.

Prob - Lev(+0)
25% - 1
50% - 6
75% - 11
100% - 16

A character with max ranks and no bonuses can Take10 (if allowed) in these at level 7.
However every +1 of bonus decreases all these required levels by 1.
Note that the trick can instead be taken at level 2.
 

Group 2 : req 8 ranks -> DC 23

Examples:

Timely Misdirection~Bluff 8 ranks~Successful feint allows you to avoid attacks of opportunity
False Theurgy~Bluff or Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks~Your spell appears to be another spell of the same level
Nimble Stand~Tumble 8 ranks~Stand from prone safely

Prob - Lev(+0)
25% - 4
50% - 9
75% - 14
100% - 19

A character with max ranks and no bonuses can Take10 (if allowed) in these at level 10.
However every +1 of bonus decreases all these required levels by 1.
Note that the trick can instead be taken at level 5.



---


Group 3 : req 12 ranks -> DC 27

Examples:

Spot the Weak Point~Spot 12 ranks~Make your next attack a touch attack
Acrobatic Backstab~Tumble 12 ranks~Move through foe's space to render it flat-footed

Prob - Lev(+0)
25% - 8
50% - 13
75% - 18
100% - 23

A character with max ranks and no bonuses can Take10 (if allowed) in these at level 14.
However every +1 of bonus decreases all these required levels by 1.
Note that the trick can instead be taken at level 9.
 

Great idea!
I have only heard about these skill tricks and they sound fantastic, but I had also considered using them as expanded uses of skills.

I like Li's math on this. The DC=prereq+15 seem good enough, and the randomness of dice throwing makes these formidable tasks even more interesting at the table.

One question though: if a Sorcerer with Bluff+12 and Spellcraft+8 attempts False Theurgy, wich should he roll? Bluff or Spellcraft? Both? Should each DM make a judgement call on every ocasion?

With tricks like these, could we roll only one skill, and make the other a prereq, wording them something like:

False Theurgy [Bluff]~prereq: Spellcraft+5~Your spell appears to be another spell of the same level
 

erf_beto said:
One question though: if a Sorcerer with Bluff+12 and Spellcraft+8 attempts False Theurgy, wich should he roll? Bluff or Spellcraft? Both? Should each DM make a judgement call on every ocasion?

I would probably like something simple. Perhaps each of the two skills alone can achieve the same effect, so a character would simply use the one he's best at. For example, a Wizard may disguise her spells with Spellcraft and a Bard with Bluff.
 

Sorry for being devil's advocate here but what about this trick:

Walk the Walls~Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Run straight up wall for 1 round

Is 'Walk the Walls' supposed to be easier for tumblers than it is for climbers?
(Climb DC 27 or Tumble DC 20)

There's also the problem of opposed skill checks, wich we haven't looked into yet. That false theurgy could be Bluff opposed by Sense Motive ("he doesn't seem to know what he's doing...") or Spellcraft opposed by Spellcraft ("that´s absurd! why would he invoke that sigil on a healing spell?").
... :uhoh:
Ok... too much. I got it. I'll stop now :heh:
 

erf_beto said:
Walk the Walls~Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Run straight up wall for 1 round

Is 'Walk the Walls' supposed to be easier for tumblers than it is for climbers?
(Climb DC 27 or Tumble DC 20)


Yes that's what I had in mind for these kind of tricks with 2 requirements.

I don't see it as a problem (e.g. in this case the action is clearly more about running than climbing), but another DM could simply just choose one of the required skill to work but not the other, or could decide to use only the higher DC... We're in HR territory so everything is up to us.

About opposed rolls, the thing should be considered carefully. I think however that these tricks don't allow opposed rolls (but I'm not sure).
If they do, then let's check the trick description, because we may just want to add the usage as it is described there.
If they don't, then we might actually just make it a roll vs DC like the core Tumble skill works when moving without provoking AoOs.
 

Li Shenron said:
I don't see it as a problem (e.g. in this case the action is clearly more about running than climbing).
and thats why you have to have a higher tumble then climb... oh wait, no!

Looks like its more about climbing then running...
 

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