Converting skill tricks to expanded uses of skills and new feats

[Li Shenron]

and thats why you have to have a higher tumble then climb... oh wait, no!

Looks like its more about climbing then running...

I see what you mean. But "walking up walls" still seems to me more a matter of speed and agility rather than really climbing. You're not using your hands for example, you're just achieving the benefit of climbing but by walking quickly and maybe balancing. I definitely think that if it was a skill check, Tumble is more appropriate. But probably the author had in mind that it should be mostly a climb feature, so all the tricks with 2 or more skill requisites eventually should be double-checked before deciding which skill they should be converted into (at least if the 2 skills require different ranks) - here's the complete list:

>>> Social Recovery~Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks~Make Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check

I think that "fixing" a failed diplomatic attempt is best done by keep being diplomatic, not by bluffing.

However this would be quite the same as simply allowing a retry on the diplomacy check...

A Bluff check allowed to change the result of diplomacy could be allowed also, although it doesn't seem completely fair for me, as it quite changes the whole mechanic of diplomacy. If allowed, then it definitely should be harder than the diplomacy DC itself.

>>> Conceal Spellcasting~Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank~Conceal your spellcasting from onlookers

Spellcraft is the most relevant, no doubt.

Sleight of Hand makes sense only if the spell has somatic components, but why should it matter if the spell doesn't? And how could it be useful to conceal verbal components? If this was meant as main skill, then it's just a mistake.

The concentration rank is probably there for flavor only. Perhaps it could be vaguely justified ("you need to be careful to conceal your spells"? bah...).

I propose this trick to be made a Spellcraft roll, nothing else.

>>> Shrouded Dance~Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks~Use move action to gain concealment for 1 round

Tricky. You probably use this trick in plain sight, but you don't actually hide (or become invisible), you just get a temporary % concealment.

This sounds more about moving fast rather than really conceal yourself, so I propose it as a Perform(dance) check.

I'm not sure if I'd allow a Hide check at all to do the same thing. If I did, definitely higher DC.

>>> Magical Appraisal~Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks~Determine properties of magic items

Another tricky one.

Appraise seems the best to me, although its core use doesn't allow you tell magic from mundane... It could be potentially very useful, so it might be limited to just detecting that it's magic, rather than identifying the properties (or the latter should require a higher DC).

Knowledge(Arcana) is subtly different but could work as well.

I'm instead not convinced by Spellcraft: you use spells to make items, but once they're made it's not that there is much relationship between the spells used and the item. Spellcraft is all about spell knowledge (particularly when spells are cast), so I see this fit less with the ability than Knowledge(Arcana) which more specifically covers knowledge of items.

>>> Walk the Walls~Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Run straight up wall for 1 round

As mentioned before, I believe this should be either a Tumble check only, or otherwise both but Climb should have a higher DC.

 

[Crashy75]

Li, I like your thinking so far. I haven't had time to read completely so forgive anything I've missed.

>>> Social Recovery~Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks~Make Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check

I think that "fixing" a failed diplomatic attempt is best done by keep being diplomatic, not by bluffing.

However this would be quite the same as simply allowing a retry on the diplomacy check...

A Bluff check allowed to change the result of diplomacy could be allowed also, although it doesn't seem completely fair for me, as it quite changes the whole mechanic of diplomacy. If allowed, then it definitely should be harder than the diplomacy DC itself.

+5 to the DC? Personally, i don't think bluff fits very well. Would a diplomacy retry (with no penalty) be so bad? The skill implies that retries would have some sort of penalty. You could make a 'normal' retry have some sort of penalty (-5 if allowed at all) with this trick eliminating the penalty and assuring a single retry. I'd give it a req: 5 dip, 1 sense motive.

>>> Conceal Spellcasting~Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank~Conceal your spellcasting from onlookers

Spellcraft is the most relevant, no doubt.

Sleight of Hand makes sense only if the spell has somatic components, but why should it matter if the spell doesn't? And how could it be useful to conceal verbal components? If this was meant as main skill, then it's just a mistake.

The concentration rank is probably there for flavor only. Perhaps it could be vaguely justified ("you need to be careful to conceal your spells"? bah...).

I propose this trick to be made a Spellcraft roll, nothing else.

mmm... I don't like this one for 3 reasons:

#1 As you said, Sleight of Hand can't mask verbal components.

#2: I'm leery about giving virtual feats to full spellcasters when they are so powerful as it is. The one thing I did like about SoH is that 5 cross-class ranks are a pain to come by and it makes the ability hard to sustain at higher levels. Though, I have a sneaking suspicion that the bedazzler gets SoH as a class skill.

#3: To me, the reason casting a spell provokes AoO's is because the caster has to let his guard down to cast spells. I don't think it matters if the attacker thinks he's casting a spell or weaving a basket. If the same caster were to cast a silenced, stilled, eschewed spell, he'd still provoke an AoO unless he also cast defensively even though nobody around him would know he's casting a spell. That’s my feeling anyway. Also, I think this trick should be for social situations where it's inappropriate to cast a spell or perhaps as a way to avoid a counterspell.

I think the reason they used SoH, and not bluff (for example) is that bards have it and most other casters don't. I really don't think this should be a spellcraft roll. Every 2nd level wizard (and really everybody else including CoD) would have this by 2nd level. Druids and wizards have enough. What to do...
Maaaybe Req: bluff 8 ranks. Opposed bluff check. Still provoke an AoO. No counterspell. Useful for the bard (needs a boost), sorcerer (also needs a boost if he wants to compete with the wiz with a wand/scroll belt) and probably the bedazzler (doesn't need a boost really) idk.

>>> Shrouded Dance~Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks~Use move action to gain concealment for 1 round

Tricky. You probably use this trick in plain sight, but you don't actually hide (or become invisible), you just get a temporary % concealment.

This sounds more about moving fast rather than really conceal yourself, so I propose it as a Perform(dance) check.

I'm not sure if I'd allow a Hide check at all to do the same thing. If I did, definitely higher DC.

I believe the idea is that you conceal your exact position behind your long flowing dress and such.
But sure, I agree that it should be a perform check.

>>> Magical Appraisal~Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks~Determine properties of magic items

Another tricky one.

Appraise seems the best to me, although its core use doesn't allow you tell magic from mundane... It could be potentially very useful, so it might be limited to just detecting that it's magic, rather than identifying the properties (or the latter should require a higher DC).

Knowledge(Arcana) is subtly different but could work as well.

I'm instead not convinced by Spellcraft: you use spells to make items, but once they're made it's not that there is much relationship between the spells used and the item. Spellcraft is all about spell knowledge (particularly when spells are cast), so I see this fit less with the ability than Knowledge(Arcana) which more specifically covers knowledge of items.

I agree that spellcraft doesn't fit. Really, I think Knowledge (Arcana) is the best fit. Appraise is really about finding the value of an item where Kno (arcana) is about everything magical (except casting/identifying/scribing spells- that's spellcraft.) I just thought of an argument for appraise though. Any given magical property has a gold cost associated with it. A mage armor scroll is less valuable than a wish scroll for example. Appraise would be useless if the appraiser didn't know the magical properties of said item. Perhaps appraise would be the best. I just can't decide.

>>> Walk the Walls~Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks~Run straight up wall for 1 round

As mentioned before, I believe this should be either a Tumble check only, or otherwise both but Climb should have a higher DC.

I really see tumble here.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I really see tumble here.

There was something similar in BoIM... and it required both. I think skill tricks with two prerequisites should need two checks.

Or better, while more skill intensive, be broken into two skill uses, like: Hold on wall (Climb, DC 27) ~ you can hold on the wall for the round, even if it's smooth, and with another check (Tumble, DC 20), you can run along it. If you fail either, you fall down.