Converting True Dragons

[Cleon]

So, did you want to cut the die size or number of dice for the poison breath, or both?

How's this? I'm leaning toward 1d4 rounds for the blinding, since that's close to the original's 2 rounds, but it does feel possibly weak.

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 10d8 acid damage (DC X Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 20d8 fire damage (DC X Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC X Fort save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 10d8 nonlethal damage (DC X Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC X Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for X minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC X, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

That looks basically fine to me.

If you think the blinding duration is too short I have no objection to making it longer, although it might not make much practical difference considering how few melee round a typical high-level 3E combat lasts. Maybe 2d4 rounds?

The only other number we need to decide on is the duration of the gaseous form. The original was 5 to 10 melee rounds, or 1d6+4 minutes. I'd be fine with using that.

 

[freyar]

It's not a big deal to me, but I think I do like 2d4 rounds blinding a bit better. I mean, this is a big unique dragon after all! 1d6+4 minutes works for me on the gaseous form duration, too. That gives us

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 10d8 acid damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 20d8 fire damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC 34 Fort save or be blinded for 2d4 rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 10d8 nonlethal damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC 34 Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for 1d6+4 minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC 34, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

 

[Cleon]

It's not a big deal to me, but I think I do like 2d4 rounds blinding a bit better. I mean, this is a big unique dragon after all! 1d6+4 minutes works for me on the gaseous form duration, too. That gives us

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 10d8 acid damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 20d8 fire damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC 34 Fort save or be blinded for 2d4 rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 10d8 nonlethal damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC 34 Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for 1d6+4 minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC 34, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

The vaporizing breath now does nonlethal damage it is unable to kill creatures or destroy objects so I'll remove "Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell."

There are also a few minor typos that need correcting.

I'll update the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft with:

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone of vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 10d8 acid damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 20d8 fire damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC 34 Fort save or be blinded for 2d4 rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 10d8 nonlethal damage (DC 34 Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC 34 Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for 1d6+4 minutes. The vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC 34, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

 

[Cleon]

I'll update the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft with:

Spell-Like Abilities next I suppose.

 

[freyar]

Good catch on the vaporizing breath! Too much copy-paste for me there.

Yes to SLAs next. One should be gaseous form, since the original monster says he can take on a gaseous form. I don't have much opinion on the rest of them, though maybe some kind of variant on Rahab's would make sense. I guess I'd keep greater dispel and probably suggestion. I'm not quite sure what to substitute for the shadow spells, though.

 

[Cleon]

Good catch on the vaporizing breath! Too much copy-paste for me there.

Yes to SLAs next. One should be gaseous form, since the original monster says he can take on a gaseous form. I don't have much opinion on the rest of them, though maybe some kind of variant on Rahab's would make sense. I guess I'd keep greater dispel and probably suggestion. I'm not quite sure what to substitute for the shadow spells, though.

Surely it'd make more sense to make it a supernatural ability à la the SRD vampire:

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

I'd be inclined to have the dragon keep its Fly speed. Like this:

Gaseous Form #1 (Su): As a standard action, Ahi can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 25th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 300 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Hmm… why does the Vampire and Belker's gaseous form write-up have a caster level? It's a (Su) ability so can't be dispelled. The SRD default gaseous form doesn't mention caster level.

Upon reflection, I'd prefer the following:

Gaseous Form #2 (Su): As a standard action Ahi can assume gaseous form at will, but he can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 300 feet with perfect maneuverability.

 

[freyar]

Making the gaseous form ability Su is fine by me; I thought since we didn't have it already, we must be planning to stick it in the SLAs. I'd go with version #2 of the Su versions.

That leaves us more "room" in the SLAs. So keep greater dispel and suggestion. Let's start by dropping the shadow spells; I kind of like them but don't want Ahi and Rahab to be too similar. How about changing power word stun to power word blind and moving it to 3/day? Also at 3/day, I'd suggest whirlwind and then storm of vengeance at 1/day. I'd certainly be open to ideas for another 1/day SLA and a couple 5/day SLAs.

 

[Cleon]

Making the gaseous form ability Su is fine by me; I thought since we didn't have it already, we must be planning to stick it in the SLAs. I'd go with version #2 of the Su versions.

Updating the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft.

I changed the wording to "Ahi can assume gaseous form at will as a standard action, but he can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 300 feet with perfect maneuverability." since I think it flows better.

That leaves us more "room" in the SLAs. So keep greater dispel and suggestion. Let's start by dropping the shadow spells; I kind of like them but don't want Ahi and Rahab to be too similar. How about changing power word stun to power word blind and moving it to 3/day? Also at 3/day, I'd suggest whirlwind and then storm of vengeance at 1/day. I'd certainly be open to ideas for another 1/day SLA and a couple 5/day SLAs.

We should definitely swap the shadow SLAs for something else. Shadow powers was Rahab's schtick, not Ahi's.

I'm tempted to give him 3/day limited wish as a substitute for one of the higher-level shadow spells (greater shadow evocation or shades).

Your suggestions seem too heavy on attack and lacking in utility or defense spells. How about wind walk so he can quickly transport allies? Maybe control winds and/or control weather?

While whirlwind is fine, storm of vengeance seems a bit inappropriate. Ahi doesn't have any association with electricity or cold in the original, so why add an SLA that produces lightning and hail. Maybe substitute elemental swarm (air only)?

 

[freyar]

That gaseous form is ok.

Those are good ideas. How about this for the SLAs?
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater dispel magic; 5/day—control winds, suggestion; 3/day—limited wish, power word blind, whirlwind, wind walk; 1/day—elemental swarm (air only)

 

[Cleon]

That gaseous form is ok.

Those are good ideas. How about this for the SLAs?
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater dispel magic; 5/day—control winds, suggestion; 3/day—limited wish, power word blind, whirlwind, wind walk; 1/day—elemental swarm (air only)

I'd add in control weather and tweak the order as follows:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—control winds; 5/day—greater dispel magic, suggestion; 3/day—control weather, limited wish, wind walk; 1/day—elemental swarm (air only), power word blind, whirlwind. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

That puts all of his out-and-out attack SLAs as 1/day which means he won't be spamming power word blind and whirlwind SLAs multiple times.

I tweaked the greater dispel magic to 5/day just to have another difference from Rahab, but if you prefer it At-will I'd be happy moving it back.

 

[freyar]

That looks pretty good to me!

Shall we tackle the spells for both of them next?

 

[Cleon]

That looks pretty good to me!

Updating the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft.

Shall we tackle the spells for both of them next?

Might as well.

While we're talking about updating Rahab we might as well fix the mixmatch in the AC. His stat block lists a +3 profane bonus to AC but his aura of profane darkness says it's a +4 profane bonus.

We need to change one or other of them to match. Do you have any preferences which? I'm leaning to making the AC line's +3 since that (a) matches the 3-point difference in the original AC and (b) leaves the touch AC unchanged, so involves the fewest changes to the current CC version.

 

[Cleon]

Okay, here's the outline for the spells:

Spells: Ahi casts spells as a 17th-level sorcerer. The steel dragon can cast spells of the Good, Luck and Weather domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known: (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/5; save DC 20 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, daze, detect magic, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance;
1st—color spray, entropic shield, obscuring mist, protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement;
2nd—aid, fog cloud, glitterdust, gust of wind, invisibility;
3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, lightning bolt, suggestion;
4th—freedom of movement, holy smite, scrying, solid fog;
5th—break enchantment, dispel evil, feeblemind, wall of force;
6th—blade barrier, geas/quest, true seeing;
7th—greater teleport, mass hold person, spell turning;
8th—holy aura, moment of prescience.


Spells: Rahab casts spells as an 11th-level sorcerer. The grey dragon can cast spells of the Darkness, Evil and Madness domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known: (6/7/7/7/6/4; save DC 13 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance;
1st—alarm, identify, lesser confusion, protection from good, true strike;
2nd—blindness, command undead, eagle's splendor, hideous laughter, whispering wind;
3rd—blacklight, dispel magic, stinking cloud, vampiric touch;
4th—charm monster, confusion, crushing despair;
5th—dominate person, nightmare.

 

[freyar]

Yeah, let's just change the profane bonus to +3.

I guess we should pick domains first. How about Air and Weather for Ahi and Darkness and Evil for Rahab?

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, let's just change the profane bonus to +3.

Agreed.

I guess we should pick domains first. How about Air and Weather for Ahi and Darkness and Evil for Rahab?

I'm inclined to give them 3 domains apiece like the Blue, Bronze, Copper, Gold and Red Dragons do.

Maybe Good, Luck and Weather for Ahi, or Darkness, Evil and Madness for Rahab? I also considered Travel for Ahi and Trickery for Rahab.

 

[freyar]

Oh, those domains will be fine.

OK, 0th level spells: resistance, detect magic, read magic, daze, ray of frost, mage hand, message, arcane mark, prestidigitation should work for both of them, but I definitely don't mind swapping out daze and/or ray of frost for either dragon if you prefer.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, those domains will be fine.

Editing Working Spells.

OK, 0th level spells: resistance, detect magic, read magic, daze, ray of frost, mage hand, message, arcane mark, prestidigitation should work for both of them, but I definitely don't mind swapping out daze and/or ray of frost for either dragon if you prefer.

I'd prefer at least a bit of variation between the two of them.

How about we give Ahi the nine cantrips you propose but give Rahab ghost sound and detect poison instead of daze and ray of frost?

 

[freyar]

That'll work for me.

Ahi at first level could have obscuring mist, protection from evil, sleep and maybe two of hypnotism, ray of enfeeblement, burning hands, or even magic missile. I feel like environmental control spells are best for him, but there aren't too many at 1st level, and I feel like he'd avoid melee due to his weak jaws. And magic missile from a Colossal dragon would be amusing. Or we could go for a utility spell like unseen servant.

For Rahab, I like lesser confusion (from the Madness domain as listed in the Divine section). Chill touch would probably work nicely with his alacritous claws, too, if he can use touch attacks with his claws. Alarm would make sense for his lair. Unseen servant and identify might also make sense with his flavor text.

Thoughts?

 

[Cleon]

That'll work for me.

Editing Working Spells.

Ahi at first level could have obscuring mist, protection from evil, sleep and maybe two of hypnotism, ray of enfeeblement, burning hands, or even magic missile. I feel like environmental control spells are best for him, but there aren't too many at 1st level, and I feel like he'd avoid melee due to his weak jaws. And magic missile from a Colossal dragon would be amusing. Or we could go for a utility spell like unseen servant.

For Rahab, I like lesser confusion (from the Madness domain as listed in the Divine section). Chill touch would probably work nicely with his alacritous claws, too, if he can use touch attacks with his claws. Alarm would make sense for his lair. Unseen servant and identify might also make sense with his flavor text.

Thoughts?

For Rahab, I like alarm, identify, lesser confusion, protection from good, true strike.

For Ahi, the standout from his Domain spells would seem to be entropic shield. How about color spray, entropic shield, obscuring mist, protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement?

 

[freyar]

Those first level spells seem fine to me.

2nd level:
Ahi - aid (on 2 domain lists), fog cloud, gust of wind, hideous laughter, invisibility perhaps.
Rahab - coming up shortly...