Converting True Dragons

[Cleon]

Rahab the Grey Dragon Original Stats

Grey Dragon (Draco Nox Diabolus)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -5 (-2)
MOVE: 15”/24”
HIT DICE: 12 (96 hit points)
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: H, S, T, U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-4/1-4/5-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (48′ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 25%
Magic Use: 75%
Sleeping: 10%

The grey dragon, Rahab, is hated by dragons as much as he is hated by all other creatures. The only living things around him are the men, dwarves, and goblins he has enslaved. He lives deep in a cavern in a remote mountain range and never ventures forth from it.

The grey dragon attacks with the usual claw/claw/bite routine but gets two additional swings with his claws because of his tremendous speed. The latter two claw attacks are at -1 “to hit” and do only 1-4 points of damage. Rahab’s breath weapon is a gas cloud that affects all victims with its boundaries (2″ + 2″ + 3″) as a super-powerful charm spell. Affected characters or creatures who fail their saving throw vs. breath weapon will never again attack Rahab or do him harm for as long as they live, or until the effect of the breath weapon is negated by a Remove Curse spell.

Those who enter the dragon’s cavern will find nothing but a large mound of blackness, for Rahab is hidden by a form of Continual Darkness. The spell is not affected by anything save Continual Light, which will act as a Light spell. In this darkness, Rahab has an armor class of -5. If the darkness is temporarily alleviated by the application of Continual Light, its armor class worsens to -2.

If adversaries come close enough to the dragon, or if Rahab advances toward his foes, the grey dragon may be able to envelop his opponents in this blackness, effectively blinding them. If he manages to do this Rahab receives a +5 bonus “to hit” on each character so affected. The dragon’s own vision is sufficient to see under the darkness. The edge of the area of darkness is approximately three feet away from the dragon and surrounds him totally.

The dragon can cast two magic-user spells per day, but can use no spell of higher than third level.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #62 (“Steel Dragon - Grey Dragon” by Pat Reinken, June 1982).

 

[Cleon]

The dragon can cast two magic-user spells per day, but can use no spell of higher than third level.

The above suggests to me that Rahab's conversion should have had sorcerer spellcasting or some other kind of spontaneous spellcasting, it just never happened.

The format of "two spells up to 3rd level" is a bit weird. Standard 1E dragons include lower-level ones in their repertoire (i.e. an ancient Blue has three 1st, three 2nd and two 3rd-level spells; while an old Red and a young adult Gold both have two 1st, two 2nd and two 3rd).

Anyhow, that leads me to think Rahab ought to have something like sorcerer casting 11th, like an old Red Dragon in 3E.

Still, it's a finished conversion now so should we change it? I guess we could add an optional subentry.

 

[Nookie]

The above suggests to me that Rahab's conversion should have had sorcerer spellcasting or some other kind of spontaneous spellcasting, it just never happened.

The format of "two spells up to 3rd level" is a bit weird. Standard 1E dragons include lower-level ones in their repertoire (i.e. an ancient Blue has three 1st, three 2nd and two 3rd-level spells; while an old Red and a young adult Gold both have two 1st, two 2nd and two 3rd).

Anyhow, that leads me to think Rahab ought to have something like sorcerer casting 11th, like an old Red Dragon in 3E.

Still, it's a finished conversion now so should we change it? I guess we could add an optional subentry.

It seems like at least 14 ish level seems to be were most cr 22 dragons tend to sit in spellcasting ability.

 

[Cleon]

It seems like at least 14 ish level seems to be were most cr 22 dragons tend to sit in spellcasting ability.

14th seems a little high. It's a substantially weaker caster than Ahi.

Anyhow, the question is currently academic since we haven't even decided whether we ought to modify a completed conversion like Rahab is.

Oh, and if we do give it a sorcerer CL I'd rather it be an odd number of caster levels since all the SRD true dragons use odd levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, et cetera…).

 

[Nookie]

14th seems a little high. It's a substantially weaker caster than Ahi.

Anyhow, the question is currently academic since we haven't even decided whether we ought to modify a completed conversion like Rahab is.

Oh, and if we do give it a sorcerer CL I'd rather it be an odd number of caster levels since all the SRD true dragons use odd levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, et cetera…).

So 13 for rhab and 15 for ahi?

 

[Cleon]

So 13 for rhab and 15 for ahi?

I was thinking 17th for Ahi and 11th for Rahab (assuming we give Rahab caster levels of course).

That matches the sorcerer casting of a Wyrm Gold Dragon and a Wyrm White Dragon, which seem a reasonable match to the casting levels of the original dragons.

 

[Nookie]

I was thinking 17th for Ahi and 11th for Rahab (assuming we give Rahab caster levels of course).

That matches the sorcerer casting of a Wyrm Gold Dragon and a Wyrm White Dragon, which seem a reasonable match to the casting levels of the original dragons.

so rhabs going to be a lower challenge rating?

 

[freyar]

I think the casting is enough of an oversight on Rahab that we should make the change. And I'll go with CL 11 with CL 17 for Ahi.

The CRs may end up similar since Ahi was intended to have weaker attacks, including Weak Jaws.

Anyway, are we ready to get back to Ahi's special abilities?

 

[Cleon]

I think the casting is enough of an oversight on Rahab that we should make the change. And I'll go with CL 11 with CL 17 for Ahi.

The CRs may end up similar since Ahi was intended to have weaker attacks, including Weak Jaws.

That's all fine by me. I'll add a red section to Rahab's stats in the Working Draft to remind us to do him as well when we get around to sorting out the spells for the dragon brothers.

EDIT: While we're at it we can fix Ahi and Rahab's tail slap damage, which should do 4d6+18 rather than 4d6+16.

EDITED EDIT: I'm still wondering whether we should give Rahab a lower Strength than Ahi since he's less of a "Combat Monster" than his sibling.

Maybe make him Strength 33? Then his 4d6+16 tail slap would actually match his Strength modifier!

The weakest Dragon I could find with a quick search through my files are the Arcane Dragons, who have Strength 17 at Huge and 25 at Gargantuan. That'd correspond to Strength 33 at Colossal, so we do have precedent for a dragon with that low a Str score.

It would still probably be better to either make Rahab stronger or shrink both of them to size Gargantuan, but we're kind of committed to Rahab's stats as a low-strength Colossal dragon.

Anyway, are we ready to get back to Ahi's special abilities?

Yup!

Shall we do them in order - which would put the Vaporous Appearance first - or is there a special ability you particularly want to sort out?

 

[freyar]

If we're open to changing Rahab, I'd probably change the Str. I have mixed feelings because we must have agreed on this with Shade, but I don't understand how we came up with such low ability scores. And it's a 2008 conversion, so we were here. I guess I'll need to dig through the thread to find him at some point.

Yes, let's go for the Vaporous Appearance. The precise mechanic isn't very 3.X, but I think a concealment miss chance would work nicely. Maybe 50% like total concealment/displacement?

 

[Cleon]

If we're open to changing Rahab, I'd probably change the Str. I have mixed feelings because we must have agreed on this with Shade, but I don't understand how we came up with such low ability scores. And it's a 2008 conversion, so we were here. I guess I'll need to dig through the thread to find him at some point.

I'm reluctant to changing Rahab's stats apart from the addition of spellcasting.

Dropping Ahi's Strength to 33 seems a decent idea though, any objections to that?

Yes, let's go for the Vaporous Appearance. The precise mechanic isn't very 3.X, but I think a concealment miss chance would work nicely. Maybe 50% like total concealment/displacement?

The "always miss on his first attempt to hit" reminds me of a 1st edition displacer beast, except they also applied a -2 penalty to their enemies' attacks after the auto-miss.

So using displacement as a model does make sense and it matches the 50% concealment his brother gets from his profane darkness aura.

 

[freyar]

Let's go with Str 33 for now anyway, but when we go back to add casting to Rahab, let's also reread our original discussion about his stats. They're just weird.

Here's an attempt:
Vaporous Appearance (Ex/Su??): Ahi appears as a roiling cloud of dragon shape. He gains a 50% miss chance, as if he had total concealment, except enemies can target him normally. True seeing reveals his actual location.???

I'm not sure about the type of SQ (Ex or Su) this should be and whether true seeing should work. I feel like we should make it stronger to match Rahab's profane darkness, which means dropping the true seeing line and making it Ex, but I wonder what you think.

 

[Cleon]

Let's go with Str 33 for now anyway, but when we go back to add casting to Rahab, let's also reread our original discussion about his stats. They're just weird.

Updating the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft.

I didn't include any feat adjustments in the updated attack lines, but presumably he'll have at least Multiattack when we get around to deciding on the feats.

Here's an attempt:
Vaporous Appearance (Ex/Su??): Ahi appears as a roiling cloud of dragon shape. He gains a 50% miss chance, as if he had total concealment, except enemies can target him normally. True seeing reveals his actual location.???

I'm not sure about the type of SQ (Ex or Su) this should be and whether true seeing should work. I feel like we should make it stronger to match Rahab's profane darkness, which means dropping the true seeing line and making it Ex, but I wonder what you think.

True seeing allows vision through normal and magical darkness so it would not be obscured by Rahab's aura of profane darkness.

I'm still inclined to make it (Ex) to match Rahab's ability though.

The first line reads more like something from his description than a combat entry.

I'm not sure about including the reference to total concealment, since that implies enemies don't have line-of-sight and raises the question of whether he has the hefty Hide bonuses from not being visible.

How about we just recycle a Displacer Beast's Displacement ability?

Like so:

Vaporous Appearance (Ex): Ahi's appearance as a roiling dragon-shaped cloud makes it difficult to surmise his true location. Any melee or ranged attack directed at Ahi has a 50% miss chance unless the attacker can locate the steel dragon by some means other than sight. A true seeing effect allows the user to see Ahi's position, but see invisible has no effect.

 

[freyar]

Sure, that will work! And I like treating it as an Ex ability.

I feel like we've used Weak Jaws or something very similar somewhere, so we should just be able to copy it. I feel like rather than 3d8, his bite damage should probably be 4d6 (though that's less true to the original) since then the bite damage is just that of a Gargantuan dragon (ie, one size less).
Weak Jaws (Ex): Ahi's bite damage is that of a dragon of one smaller size category.

 

[Cleon]

Sure, that will work! And I like treating it as an Ex ability.

Good! I'll include it in the next update.

I feel like we've used Weak Jaws or something very similar somewhere, so we should just be able to copy it. I feel like rather than 3d8, his bite damage should probably be 4d6 (though that's less true to the original) since then the bite damage is just that of a Gargantuan dragon (ie, one size less).
Weak Jaws (Ex): Ahi's bite damage is that of a dragon of one smaller size category.

I'm quite happy to make it 4d6 rather than 3d8 - I simply forgot that true dragons had a non standard bite damage progression at Gargantuan.

I vaguely remember talking about giving the Albino Wyrm a "weak claws" SQ back when we where wondering whether to make it a True Dragon or just a dragon.

Come to think of it, we can just invert the "Increased Claw Damage" of the Dune Dragon:

Increased Claw Damage (Ex): Because of their sharp claws and muscular legs, dune dragons deal claw damage as if they were one size category larger.

Hence…

Reduced Bite Damage (Ex): Because of his small fangs and weak jaws, Ahi deals bite damage as if he were one size category smaller.

I'll include the above changes in an update of the Ahi the Steel Dragon Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

Looks good.

Moving to the breath weapon, lets deal with poison vs scalding first. Based on the original text, I'd say that the poison breath should be a smallish amount of untyped damage plus unconsciousness (immunity to poison negates; Ref save halves damage and negates unconsciousness), while the scalding breath should be a normal-large amount of fire damage plus blinding (Ref save halves damage and negates blindness). As for the gaseous form breath, I feel like we have a precedent somewhere, but I guess it's pretty much straightforward anyway. I might give a Fort save rather than a Ref save for that, though. What do you think?

 

[Cleon]

Looks good.

Moving to the breath weapon, lets deal with poison vs scalding first. Based on the original text, I'd say that the poison breath should be a smallish amount of untyped damage plus unconsciousness (immunity to poison negates; Ref save halves damage and negates unconsciousness)

Alternatively, we could have the poison vapour do acid damage (similar to how early-edition Green Dragons breath poisonous chlorine gas that did hit points damage) or Con damage.

It could actually be a poison that causes Con damage plus unconsciousness as its primary/secondary effect.

Or we could have it do a bit of damage (untyped or acid) and expose creatures who fail their Reflex saves to the poison (Fort save to avoid unconsciousness)? Or maybe have them make the saves separately?

, while the scalding breath should be a normal-large amount of fire damage plus blinding (Ref save halves damage and negates blindness).

That approach to the Scalding Breath sounds fine.

As for the gaseous form breath, I feel like we have a precedent somewhere, but I guess it's pretty much straightforward anyway. I might give a Fort save rather than a Ref save for that, though. What do you think?

Regarding the gaseous breath, I suspect you were recalling the following:

Breath Weapon (Su): A Mystaran sapphire dragon has two breath weapons: a line of lightning or a line of vaporizing energy that does untyped damage. Any creature or object within the area of effect can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. If a creature struck by the first (vaporizing) breath weapon fails this save they must also attempt a Fortitude save or contract a supernatural curse carried by the breath weapon, as follows.

Sapphire Curse: Objects and creatures affected by this curse turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for 1 minute per age category of the dragon. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell.

The sapphire curse can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the dragon's spell resistance (minimum DC 15). A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The above Sapphire Curse is a pretty exact match, so we just need to tweak the name and text a little (I think "Vaporizing Breath" works better than "Vaporous Curse" in this case) and decide on a duration for the effect.

 

[freyar]

I can get on board with your last proposal for the poison breath: a small amount of acid damage with anyone damaged by the acid exposed to a Con/Con + unconsciousness poison. How about that?

I think I'd go with d4 damage dice for the poison and d10 or maybe d8 for the scalding breath.

I like using that sapphire curse. So that would be a breath weapon like this.

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 24d4 acid damage (DC X Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 24d8 fire damage (DC X Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC X Fort save or be blinded for X rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 24d4 hp damage (DC X Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC X Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for X minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC X, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

 

[Cleon]

I can get on board with your last proposal for the poison breath: a small amount of acid damage with anyone damaged by the acid exposed to a Con/Con + unconsciousness poison. How about that?

I think I'd go with d4 damage dice for the poison and d10 or maybe d8 for the scalding breath.

I like using that sapphire curse. So that would be a breath weapon like this.

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 24d4 acid damage (DC X Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 24d8 fire damage (DC X Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC X Fort save or be blinded for X rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 24d4 hp damage (DC X Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC X Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for X minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC X, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.

That looks pretty nice. There's an extraneous "the" in "DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance" and it probably needs a "The save DCs are Constitution-based" at the end instead of the "The Fort DC is Constitution-based", plus I think I'd shufty the Poison breath and the poison itself so they're next to each other.

However, I'm not entirely on board with it doing 24 dice damage. Rahab is a CR 22 Dragon and we're presumably aiming for Ahi to be roughly the same, so he's more the equivalent of an Ancient or Wyrm dragon than a Great Wyrm.

I think 20 dice for the breath weapons might be enough, like a typical Ancient dragon.

Actually, I'd be game making the weak damage breath weapons do half the number of dice. Maybe 10d6 for the Poison Breath and 20d8 for the Scalding?

Also, the original "vaporizing" breath didn't do any damage so I'm wondering whether we should change it to make it harmless - maybe have it do nonlethal damage?

 

[freyar]

So, did you want to cut the die size or number of dice for the poison breath, or both?

How's this? I'm leaning toward 1d4 rounds for the blinding, since that's close to the original's 2 rounds, but it does feel possibly weak.

Breath Weapon (Su): Ahi has three breath weapons: a cone of poison, a cone of scalding vapor, and a cone vaporizing breath.

The poison breath does 10d8 acid damage (DC X Ref save for half damage) and exposes any creature damaged to Ahi's poison.

The scalding breath does 20d8 fire damage (DC X Ref save for half damage), and any creature damaged must make a DC X Fort save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.

The vaporizing breath does 10d8 nonlethal damage (DC X Ref save for half damage). If a creature is damaged by this breath, it must make a DC X Fort save, or it and any objects it carries turn into vapor as if they were affected by the gaseous form spell. This vaporous condition lasts for X minutes. Normally, the vaporous creature or object returns to solid form at the end of this duration, but if the vaporizing breath weapon did enough damage to destroy the creature or object it will dissipate into gas and a few puffs of dust when the duration expires. The traces of dust are enough to restore a dissipated victim with a resurrection spell. The vaporization effect can be neutralized by a dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment effect that succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to the Ahi's spell resistance. A vaporized victim can also be restored by any effect that can transform a gaseous object into a solid one, such as the polymorph any object spell or a vampire's gaseous form ability.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): injury, Fort DC X, primary damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con and unconsciousness. The Fort DC is Constitution-based.