Converting True Dragons

[Cleon]

That's reasonable flavor for the burrow speed.

Good. That can wait for the flavour text, of course.

If you'd be willing to post those tables, I'm sure that would be helpful.

Here you go:

Wyrm, Albino
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Underdark
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13–14)
TREASURE: I, U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1–3
ARMOR CLASS: 4 base
MOVEMENT: 15, Burrow 3
HIT DICE: 7 base
THAC0: 13 base
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1–4/1–4/6–36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, swallow whole, tail
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: G (10’ + long)
MORALE: Average (8–10)
XP VALUE: Varies

Dragon, White
Climate/Terrain: Arctic plains, hills, mountains, and subterranean
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Solitary or clan
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Special
Intelligence: Low (5-7)
Treasure: Special
Alignment: Chaotic evil
No. Appearing: 1 (2-5)
Armor Class: 1 (base)
Movement: 12, Fl 40 (C), Sw 12
Hit Dice: 11 (base)
THAC0: 9 (at 11 HD)
No. of Attacks: 3+special
Damage/Attack: 1-6/1-6/2-16 (2d8)
Special Attacks: Special
Special Defenses: Variable
Magic Resistance: Variable
Size: H (24’ base)
Morale: Elite (15-16)
XP Value: Variable

Albino has fewer HD, slower speed, 1 step lower claw damage, more than twice as much bite damage and almost twice as much breath damage (!), higher spell resistance and is a little bigger.

Note that the Wyrm's AC in the following table is progresses at a much faster rate than standard dragon progression and ends up much higher than a White's, despite the original statblock giving Whites a higher base AC.

[FONT=&quot]ALBINO WYRM
Age ' Body Lgt. ' Tail Lgt. '' AC ' Breath Weapon. ' MR ' Treasure Type ' XP Value[/FONT]
1 ' ' ' 2-5 ' ' ' ' 1-4 ' ' ' ' 4 ' ' ' 1d8+2 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 1,400
2 ' ' ' 5-10 ' '' ' 4-8 ' ' ' ' 2 ' ' ' 2d8+3 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 3,000
3 '' ' 10-14 ' '' ' 8-12 ' '' ' 0 ' ' ' 3d8+4 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' ' U ' ' '' ' ' 6,000
4 '' ' 14-22 ' ' ' 12-16 ' ' ' -1 ' ' ' 4d8+5 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' I,U ' ' '' ' ' 8,000
5 '' ' 22-28 ' ' ' 16-25 ' ' ' -2 ' ' ' 5d8+6 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 11,000
6 '' ' 28-40 ' ' ' 25-36 ' ' ' -3 ' ' ' 6d8+7 ' ' ' 10% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 13,000
7 '' ' 40-55 ' ' ' 36-50 ' ' ' -4 ' ' ' 7d8+8 ' ' ' 15% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 15,000
8 '' ' 55-66 ' ' ' 50-58 ' ' ' -5 ' ' ' 8d8+10 '' ' 20% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 16,000
9 '' ' 66-80 ' ' ' 58-70 ' ' ' -6 '' ' 10d8+12 '' ' 25% ' ' ' I,U×2 ' ' ' ' 18,000
10 ' ' 80-89 ' ' ' 70-77 ' ' ' -8 '' ' 12d8+14 '' ' 35% ' ' ' I,U×2 ' ' ' ' 19,000
11 ' ' 89-96 ' ' ' 77-90 ' ' ' -10 ' ' 14d8+16 '' ' 45% ' ' I×2,U×3,W ' ' ' 20,000
22 ' ' 96-110 '' ' 90-120 ' '' -13 ' ' 18d8+20 '' ' 60% ' I×3,U×4,V,W×2 ' ' 22,000
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHITE DRAGON (I left the spells out, as they're irrelevant)
Age ' Body Lgt. ' Tail Lgt. '' AC ' Breath Weapon. ' MR ' Treasure Type ' XP Value[/FONT]
1 ' ' ' 1-5 ' ' ' ' 1-4 ' ' ' ' 4 ' ' ' 1d6+1 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 3,000
2 ' ' ' 5-14 ' '' ' 4-12 ' '' ' 3 ' ' ' 2d6+2 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 4,000
3 '' ' 14-23 ' ' ' 12-21 ' '' ' 2 ' ' ' 3d6+3 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 6,000
4 '' ' 23-32 ' ' ' 21-28 ' '' ' 1 ' ' ' 4d6+4 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' E ' ' ' '' ' ' 8,000
5 '' ' 32-41 ' ' ' 28-36 ' '' ' 0 ' ' ' 5d6+5 ' ' ' 5% ' '' ' E, O, S ' ' ' 10,000
6 '' ' 41-50 ' ' ' 36-45 ' ' ' -1 ' ' ' 6d6+6 ' ' ' 10% ' ' ' E, O, S ' ' ' 12,000
7 '' ' 60-59 ' ' ' 45-54 ' ' ' -2 ' ' ' 7d6+7 ' ' ' 15% ' ' ' E, O, S ' ' ' 13,000
8 '' ' 59-68 ' ' ' 54-62 ' ' ' -3 ' ' ' 8d6+8 ' ' ' 20% ' ' ' E, O, S×2 ' ' 14,000
9 '' ' 68-77 ' ' ' 62-70 ' ' ' -4 ' ' ' 9d6+19 '' ' 25% ' ' ' E, O, S×2 ' ' 16,000
10 ' ' 77-86 ' ' ' 70-78 ' ' ' -5 '' ' 10d6+10 '' ' 30% ' ' ' E, O, S×2 ' ' 17,000
11 ' ' 86-99 ' ' ' 78-85 ' ' ' -6 '' ' 11d6+11 '' ' 35% ' ' ' E, O, S×3 ' ' 18,000
22 ' ' 94-104 '' ' 85-94 ' ' ' -7 '' ' 12d6+12 '' ' 40% ' ' ' E, O, S×3 ' ' 19,000

 

[freyar]

It's odd: the flavor says they are insane and are "barely able to express a coherent thought." But the stats make them much more intelligent than a white dragon, presumably more in line with an average chromatic dragon. They also have a much better breath weapon and, as you say, AC.

Maybe we should base the albino wyrm on a downgraded version of some other dragon (despite the chilling breath). Like a blue dragon, maybe.

 

[Cleon]

It's odd: the flavor says they are insane and are "barely able to express a coherent thought." But the stats make them much more intelligent than a white dragon, presumably more in line with an average chromatic dragon. They also have a much better breath weapon and, as you say, AC.

In 3E it's usually Wisdom that's associated with insanity, not Intelligence.

How about we give them a Derro's racial Madness trait?

Madness (Ex): Derro use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects. A derro cannot be restored to sanity by any means short of a miracle or wish spell.

*The racial madness of the derro provides a +6 bonus to their Charisma scores and a -6 penalty to their Wisdom scores. A derro restored to sanity gains 6 points of Wisdom and loses 6 points of Charisma.

Maybe we should base the albino wyrm on a downgraded version of some other dragon (despite the chilling breath). Like a blue dragon, maybe.

Well it's easy enough saying the template converts them to a Cold subtype dragon with a frosty breath weapon.

Even an AD&D Blue Dragon isn't smart enough. They are Very intelligent (Int 11-12) in AD&D.

Hmm, we don't have to restrict ourselves to Chromatic dragons. The template could turn the base dragon evil as well as insane. The template has to change the alignment anyway, assuming we use an SRD dragon and want to keep the Albino Wyrm's Neutral Evil alignment.

How about a Copper Dragon? They have "High intelligence" too, are ever so slightly larger & tougher than an Albino Wyrm, and have the Earth subtype in their 3E incarnation.

 

[freyar]

Yeah, I thought about that as I typed it. Borrowing Madness from the Derro is probably reasonable, maybe even with out the wish or miracle bit.

If you can throw up the copper dragon stats, that sounds like a good place to start.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, I thought about that as I typed it. Borrowing Madness from the Derro is probably reasonable, maybe even with out the wish or miracle bit.

We might want to fiddle with the modifiers. Most True Dragons already have a pretty good Charisma, another 6 might be too much.

Well, at least they still don't have sorcerer spellcasting!

If you can throw up the copper dragon stats, that sounds like a good place to start.

Will do.

 

[Cleon]

Wyrm, Albino
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Underdark
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: I, U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4 base
MOVEMENT: 15, Burrow 3
HIT DICE: 7 base
THAC0: 13 base
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4/6-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, swallow whole, tail
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: G (10' + long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: Varies


Dragon, Metallic Copper Dragon
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arid and temperate hills and mountains
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 1 (base)
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 30 (C), Jp 3
HIT DICE: 13 (base)
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3+special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6//1-6/5-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Special
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (36' base)
MORALE: Elite (16 base)
XP VALUE: Variable

ALBINO WYRM
Age ' Body Lgt. ' Tail Lgt. '' AC ' Breath Weapon. ' MR ' Treasure Type ' XP Value
1 ' ' ' 2-5 ' ' ' ' 1-4 ' ' ' ' 4 ' ' ' 1d8+2 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 1,400
2 ' ' ' 5-10 ' '' ' 4-8 ' ' ' ' 2 ' ' ' 2d8+3 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' Nil ' ' '' ' ' 3,000
3 '' ' 10-14 ' '' ' 8-12 ' '' ' 0 ' ' ' 3d8+4 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' ' U ' ' '' ' ' 6,000
4 '' ' 14-22 ' ' ' 12-16 ' ' ' -1 ' ' ' 4d8+5 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' I,U ' ' '' ' ' 8,000
5 '' ' 22-28 ' ' ' 16-25 ' ' ' -2 ' ' ' 5d8+6 ' ' ' Nil ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 11,000
6 '' ' 28-40 ' ' ' 25-36 ' ' ' -3 ' ' ' 6d8+7 ' ' ' 10% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 13,000
7 '' ' 40-55 ' ' ' 36-50 ' ' ' -4 ' ' ' 7d8+8 ' ' ' 15% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 15,000
8 '' ' 55-66 ' ' ' 50-58 ' ' ' -5 ' ' ' 8d8+10 '' ' 20% ' ' ' I,U ' ' ' ' ' 16,000
9 '' ' 66-80 ' ' ' 58-70 ' ' ' -6 '' ' 10d8+12 '' ' 25% ' ' ' I,U×2 ' ' ' ' 18,000
10 ' ' 80-89 ' ' ' 70-77 ' ' ' -8 '' ' 12d8+14 '' ' 35% ' ' ' I,U×2 ' ' ' ' 19,000
11 ' ' 89-96 ' ' ' 77-90 ' ' ' -10 ' ' 14d8+16 '' ' 45% ' ' I×2,U×3,W ' ' ' 20,000
22 ' ' 96-110 '' ' 90-120 ' '' -13 ' ' 18d8+20 '' ' 60% ' I×3,U×4,V,W×2 ' ' 22,000

COPPER DRAGON
Age ' Body Lgt. ' Tail Lgt. '' AC ' Breath Weapon. ' MR ' Treasure Type ' XP Value
1 . . . 3-8 . . . . 2-6 . . . . 2 . . . 2d6+1 . . . Nil . . . Nil . . .. . . 5,000
2 . . . 8-16 . .. . 4-12 . .. . 1 . . . 4d6+2 . . . Nil . . . Nil . . .. . . 7,000
3 .. . 16-27 . . . 12-20 . .. . 0 . . . 6d6+3 . . . Nil . . . Nil . . .. . . 9,000
4 .. . 27-38 . . . 20-30 . . . -1 . . . 8d6+4 . . . Nil .. . ½H, S . .. . . 11,000
5 .. . 38-50 . . . 30-40 . . . -2 .. . 10d6+5 . . . 10% . . . H, S . . .. . 14,000
6 .. . 50-59 . . . 40-50 . . . -3 .. . 12d6+6 . . . 15% . . . H, S . . .. . 15,000
7 .. . 59-73 . . . 50-60 . . . -4 .. . 14d6+7 . . . 20% . . . H, S . . .. . 16,000
8 .. . 73-86 . . . 60-70 . . . -5 .. . 16d6+8 . . . 25% . . . H, Sx2 . .. . 17,000
9 .. . 86-100 .. . 70-80 . . . -6 .. . 18d6+9 . . . 30% . . . H, Sx2 . .. . 19,000
10 .. 100-114 .. . 80-90 . . . -7 .. . 20d6+10 .. . 35% . . . H, Sx2 . .. . 21,000
11 .. 114-130 .. . 90-100 . .. -8 .. . 22d6+11 .. . 40% . . . H, Sx3 . .. . 22,000
12 .. 130-147 . . 100-110 . .. -9 .. . 24d6+12 .. . 45% . . . H, Sx3 . .. . 23,000

 

[RavinRay]

Ooh, new dragon!

I'll give your suggestions a look-over and then load the table into Excel for me to check the stats.

 

[Cleon]

Ooh, new dragon!

I'll give your suggestions a look-over and then load the table into Excel for me to check the stats.

What checking is involved?

The previous tables are from the AD&D sources, we haven't done any 3E stats yet.

 

[freyar]

I'd suggest having the Cha stay the same as the base dragon and give the Wis a -6 (or -8?) penalty. Then, if the Madness is cured, you end up with Wis at par (or slightly less) and Cha at -6.

I think I'd leave the breath weapon energy type unchanged but decrease the damage dice one step, based on this chart (we may have to spell out how to do that...).

Otherwise, we seem to have smaller, fewer HD (just more than 1/2), a bit faster (that seems a tad wrong), weaker claws, stronger bite. Anything else?

 

[Cleon]

I'd suggest having the Cha stay the same as the base dragon and give the Wis a -6 (or -8?) penalty. Then, if the Madness is cured, you end up with Wis at par (or slightly less) and Cha at -6.

Not sure I like having a "sane" Albino Wyrm be so uncharismatic.

I think I'd leave the breath weapon energy type unchanged but decrease the damage dice one step, based on this chart (we may have to spell out how to do that...).

Nay, the frosty breath seems intrinsic to an Albino Wyrm, and I want to keep it.

Reducing the damage should be pretty straightforward, we just reduce the dice size: d12 => d10; d10 => d8; 1d8 => 1d6; 1d6 => 1d4; 1d4 => ½d6 (e.g. 2d4 => 1d6).

Otherwise, we seem to have smaller, fewer HD (just more than 1/2), a bit faster (that seems a tad wrong), weaker claws, stronger bite. Anything else?

Well, we need to add a burrow speed and remove the spellcasting. The SR is a bit lower, too.

What do we do if the base dragon has SLAs? I'm thinking we should drop them.

Regarding the Hit Dice, a MCA1 Jade Dragon also has base HD of 7, but the Enworld conversion has the same HD as a Blue or Bronze dragon, which is more than a Copper. So we contemplate leaving the HD unchanged.

However, I'd prefer to lower the HD, just not as much as halving them.

Maybe 1 fewer HD per Age Category? For a Copper Albino Wyrm that'd be 4-26 HD instead of the base dragon's 5-38 HD.