Converting True Dragons

[Cleon]

I wouldn't think it would be any better than a normal true dragon.

Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 16? Adjust those mental scores any?

I'd reduce the Intelligence to the 13-14 range of the original monster.

 

[freyar]

Yeah, I wasn't sure what age category the 13-14 went with. Let's say Int 14.

The original bite damage looks like 6d6, or an average of 21 damage, but that seems like it would be for a larger age category. How about reducing it a little to 4d6+Str = 18 avg?

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, I wasn't sure what age category the 13-14 went with. Let's say Int 14.

Oddly enough, a dragon's intelligence score doesn't change by age category in the AD&D rules - although a humanoid "player character" race's Intelligence does.

The original bite damage looks like 6d6, or an average of 21 damage, but that seems like it would be for a larger age category. How about reducing it a little to 4d6+Str = 18 avg?

That 6-36 is an awful lot of bite damage, even more than an AD&D Red Dragon's 3d10.

Hmm, how about we give it a bite one size category larger than normal, plus a "powerful bite" SA that allows it to add 1½ its Strength bonus to its bite despite it having secondary attacks?

Which would result in:

Adult Red Dragon (Huge Str 33) has a 2d8+11 bite (av. damage 20).
Adult Albino Wyrm (Large Str 23) has a 3d6+9 bite (av. damage 19.5).
​

That's still less damage than a Red, so we could make it a "mid-sized" dragon like a Blue, which would give it Str 23 as a Young Adult and Str 27 as an Adult:

Young Adult Red Dragon (Huge Str 33) has a 2d8+10 bite (av. damage 19).
Young Adult Albino Wyrm (Large Str 23) has a 3d6+9 bite (av. damage 19.5).

Adult Red Dragon (Huge Str 33) has a 2d8+11 bite (av. damage 20).
Adult Albino Wyrm (Huge Str 27) has a 3d8+12 bite (av. damage 25.5).
​

Hmm, that could work. The damage ratio of 25.5/20 (=1.275) is pretty similar to the ratio of 6d6/3d10 (21/16.5 = 1.273).

 

[freyar]

3d6+9 for our "standard" Young Adult works for me.

The original albino wyrm has 1d4 claws vs 1d6 for white and copper. So: reduce the claws by one step from one of those?

 

[Cleon]

3d6+9 for our "standard" Young Adult works for me.

Updating Albino Wyrm Working Draft.

I'm starting to like the "multisizes" approach I suggested earlier, which will require we have a generic version of the Swallow Whole attack.

I've currently set the gizzard damage to be equal to the bite damage, but we might want to change it later. I'm tempted by the idea of it doing less bludgeoning damage but adding cold damage equal to the acid damage, from the wyrm's "frozen innards".

e.g. 3d6+6 plus 6 acid and 6 cold for a Young Adult wyrm's gizzard, which is still more than its 3d6+9 bite attack.

I've got separate tables for each in the working draft.

The original albino wyrm has 1d4 claws vs 1d6 for white and copper. So: reduce the claws by one step from one of those?

I thought we'd agreed on making the claws do 1 size category less than a standard 3E Dragon of that size. A Large True Dragon has 1d8 damage claws, so the Albino Wyrm'd be 1d6.

Still, I have no objection to making it 2 size steps instead, since we've given the bite such a boost to damage.

There's only a point difference in average damage between 1d6+3 and 1d4+3.

Which do you prefer?

 

[freyar]

I forgot if we'd agreed on the claws. I think a reduction of 1 step seems like the intention.

At this point, I strongly prefer the "linnorm solution" of just the one size with normal advancement rules. I think it's fairly clear that these aren't really supposed to be true dragons. But keep the generic version of Swallow Whole if you like, since we can always go through and specify it later. Let's not start writing stat blocks for the other sizes, though!

As for Swallow Whole, we have "Swallowed creatures make all attacks at –4 and cannot use any large weapons or bludgeoning weapons; unless the swallowed creature does not need to breath, it falls unconscious in 1–4 rounds from lack of air." That sounds like maybe bite damage as bludgeoning as well as suffocation, rather than bite plus acid (plus cold). I think we've done that before, so how do you like that idea?

 

[Cleon]

I forgot if we'd agreed on the claws. I think a reduction of 1 step seems like the intention.

Okay, I'll update it with "1 size less" claws.

At this point, I strongly prefer the "linnorm solution" of just the one size with normal advancement rules. I think it's fairly clear that these aren't really supposed to be true dragons. But keep the generic version of Swallow Whole if you like, since we can always go through and specify it later. Let's not start writing stat blocks for the other sizes, though!

Okay, I don't mind making the CC version "linnorm only". You just know I'm going to Cleon Special a version with age categories regardless.

In that case, I'd better cut the "Young Adult" bit out of the statblock and alter the Generic Swallow so it's size-based rather than age-based.

I think I'll even out the size advancement so its Gargantuan at 30 HD. I don't much like that 29+.

As for Swallow Whole, we have "Swallowed creatures make all attacks at –4 and cannot use any large weapons or bludgeoning weapons; unless the swallowed creature does not need to breath, it falls unconscious in 1–4 rounds from lack of air." That sounds like maybe bite damage as bludgeoning as well as suffocation, rather than bite plus acid (plus cold). I think we've done that before, so how do you like that idea?

I'm not sure we should add suffocation, since logically most Swallow Whole attacks should include it, but they don't in the SRD.

EDIT: Updating Albino Wyrm Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

Fair enough. You and your Cleon Specials(TM).

How about 2d6 (or 3d6)+6 bludgeoning and 1d6 acid in Swallow Whole?

Were we going to add something like this?
Madness (Ex): Albino wyrms use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects. [An albino wyrm cannot be restored to sanity by any means short of a miracle or wish spell.]

*The racial madness of the albino wyrm provides a +6 bonus to their Charisma scores and a -6 penalty to their Wisdom scores. An albino wyrm restored to sanity gains 6 points of Wisdom and loses 6 points of Charisma.

 

[Cleon]

Fair enough. You and your Cleon Specials(TM).

How about 2d6 (or 3d6)+6 bludgeoning and 1d6 acid in Swallow Whole?

The "gizzard grinding" damage is normally comparable to the bite, and Swallow Whole acid damage is usually fixed.

So, I'm thinking 3d6+6 plus 6 acid.

Were we going to add something like this?

Madness (Ex): Albino wyrms use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects. [An albino wyrm cannot be restored to sanity by any means short of a miracle or wish spell.]

*The racial madness of the albino wyrm provides a +6 bonus to their Charisma scores and a -6 penalty to their Wisdom scores. An albino wyrm restored to sanity gains 6 points of Wisdom and loses 6 points of Charisma.

That was the plan!

There isn't anything in the original that gives them benefits for their insanity, but then AD&D Derro don't get "madness bonuses" either.

I'd leave out the red stuff.

Madness (Ex): Albino wyrms use their Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier, and have immunity to confusion and insanity effects.

 

[freyar]

I'll agree to all of that.

The breath weapon is cold damage plus a sundering-like effect on items. Maybe base that on something like shatter, but cold rather than sonic?