Cooperative Dungeon #1 is Done. (I mean it this Time)

I have spoken with Tarchon, privately and told him the things I edited and I stand by them. I think this is a matter of a misunderstanding and a first run. As we do this a few times (hoping it will last longer than a few times) we will iron out the problems and build a level of trust amongst the contributors. This first one had some bumps in the road and we'll do what we can to fix them. I am sure with the creativity we have we can create even more complex screw ups than this ;)

Creamsteak you should realize how much more I know now than I did in Jan when I said I would do a rough edit. I think we will get even better. That to me is the whole point of people posting errata here, to me, is to know what to look out for next time. I know I am doing a 10 times as much as I did on the first one on my editing now (which will be done tomorrow) even though it is half the size and complexity. I also know I'm still not doing all I could just all I can for what I know now.

If none of that made sense, forgive. I be dog tired.

Later
 

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Well, Shallown was interested to know how I thought things were so deeply altered, and I love to see myself type, so here's how my entry was not preserved "in tact," as Creamsteak puts it, and I will attempt to do this both in and with tact. (Maybe I blew it already... I guess that's just the way things are going to go.)

The original version was designed as what Gary Gygax called a "trick" in the original DMG. Not every room in an Nth level dungeon should have an Nth-ish level (CR in Newspeak) monster that stands around in the room waiting for PCs to come around, kill it, and take its treasure. Those are good things to have in a dungeon, of course, but there are other things to life and to dungeons.
When I wrote 26, most of the existing rooms were in fact pretty good, like the excellent Scriptorium of the Damned, but they were all definitely forms of ye olde monster room, so I thought "a good Gygaxian trick is the way to go here, break things up a bit."
So what the PCs see when they go in is a big room with a huge ring of yellowish metal (could it be gold?!) suspended over a giant, tentacled violet mushroom. The room is covered with gore and there are strange markings, lines, and geometric shapes all over the floors, walls, and ceiling.

The point to this room is to make the PCs go "What the...?" and try to figure out what's going on here, because certainly any player seeing this thinks "gosh, something this big and weird has to be important!"
The PCs by now certainly know that they're in a demon infested dungeon, and everyone who knows demons - especially old time gamers - knows that demons are always involved in plots to do weird summoning rituals, open gates, etc.
They're probably going to assume that this ring is some kind of gate device being guarded by whatever they think they mushroom is, and they'll possibly think that the markings serve some ritual purpose, and they're certainly going to poke around a lot. In fact, this room is just a game court (which also serves to give the dungeon a little character), so I added some special features related to it, like the magic mouth that shouts "goal" when something goes through the ring (a quasi-trap). I also put an ordinary-ish giant rat in a hole in the corner, plus some benches, just things for PCs to find, which might clue them in about what that place really is. I intentionally made the mushroom just a perfectly ordinary sort of violet fungus, because this room isn't about combat. It's not a dire half-dragon fiendish ghost fungus with 15 levels of Monk. It's just a big funky CR 3 violet fungus that any blind and feebleminded 14th level wizard could beat to death with a spatula, and it's that way because that's not what the PCs expect it to be after running the gauntlet of templates in the rest of the dungeon. It breaks things up a little, and it also might suggest, after they puree it with a hail of 14th level blows, that the thing it seems to be guarding isn't really the Legendary Gate to the 9 Hells or something. A clue.

What happened to this carefully designed and conceived room, which inspired two other contributors to go with the demonic game theme?

One thing, the violet fungus was advanced to make it a little tougher. In itself, this is insignificant, and this was reasonable for Shallown to do, though not really necessary. Second thing, the giant rat was eliminated. Why? Dunno. I guess it's not a big deal.
Third thing, the narrative intro was changed to begin:
This large, high-vaulted room, whatever its original intent, seems to be outfitted for demonic team sports competitions.
Do you guys write murder mysteries by starting with: "The butler did it."?

On top of that, all the doors were changed to iron, including the ones to the locker rooms, and the skeleton key was removed. What was the point of that? Are people going to enjoy the dungeon that much more because it took them an extra round to break down door #36? I intended that skeleton key to be sitting there in the lock, calling to the players: "Oh, it would be so easy... just turn me and open the door, no fuss, no muss." It's something a little different and to make them wonder if it's some kind of a trap or if it's really just a simple key.

As well, the details I put in about the value, weight, composition, and decoration of the extremely valuable brass ring were removed, though I admit in that case it's possible that an earlier version of the room was used, since I added those last. And that's another feature of the room - will they think to "grab the brass ring" (yes, it began with a pun) that's worth 10000 GP? How will they get a 1-ton, 6-foot-wide objet d'art out of the dungeon?
Oh, but what else does the new and improved intro say?
"In the middle of the of the room, a four-foot diameter brass ring is suspended above a large tentacled mushroom."
I guess PCs know on sight that it's not gold somehow.

I mean, there was a hardly a single thing in it that somebody didn't decide to piss on at some point. Individually, most don't make too much difference, but the whole result of this needlessly aggressive editing is that the room drifted from being a creepily mysterious "trick" room to a really lame EL 5 monster room. I'm not fuming mad or anything, but I'm definitely in the "annoyed" category.
 

Tarchon, I think I understand where you're coming from. I must apologise how things turned out. No-one is really at fault. The editors did more than expected. You should have seen what happened behind the scene, and I could not in my right mind turn down their colossal efforts.

This is a learning process for all of us. The first CDx's will be done the best way possible. They will not be perfect. No-one is getting a paycheck in this, and some should with the efforts they put in. As we proceed, CDx will be better and better.

Already, I have learned and improved the process. For one, instead of yanking the contributions as they are posted, I will keep the CD3 thread active for quite a while, inviting contributors to "fix" their rooms as I (or the other designing team members) catch things. I already asked some of the contributions to be revised and fixed with some minor stuff I flagged.

This way, the chances that the contributor's work integrity gets altered are much smaller.

I cannot guarantee perfection, but in the words of Scotty, "I'll do my best !"
 

Trainz said:
Tarchon, I think I understand where you're coming from. I must apologise how things turned out. No-one is really at fault. The editors did more than expected. You should have seen what happened behind the scene, and I could not in my right mind turn down their colossal efforts.

This is a learning process for all of us. The first CDx's will be done the best way possible. They will not be perfect. No-one is getting a paycheck in this, and some should with the efforts they put in. As we proceed, CDx will be better and better.
Absolutely - I understand that totally and I appreciate the effort. A lot of good stuff was done in the editing, especially with integrating the rooms together. The only reason I kept flogging it was that I was sensing a little resistance to accepting the idea that editing can be overdone, and it's especially dicey when there's no opportunity to ask the original author why something was done the way it was. If I've gotten that point across, my restless spirit can now rest in peace.
 

Errata relating to my room (Room 5, the Forge). I would like to note that there were some good clarifications to the tactics section, even with the error. ;)

Also I would like to point out my error. I didn't realise that there were only longspears and shortspears. I used spear throughout my description when there was no such thing as a spear, but included stats for large shortspears. Unfortunately the SRD forgot to up the damage for longspears by making them large, so whoever was editing had no way of knowing that I meant for them to be using shortspears. I appologise for my mistake.

page 11

If you can only see 20 feet, how does the room description show the far side of the room? (Note: origionally you could see the other side.)

Origionally I had changed the stats on the Salamander to remove Alertness and give them Weapon Focus ([short]spear). I had the spears lowered to +2 weapons, and they were edited back up to +3, so that evens out, but spot and listen should be 2 points higher.

They lost Craft(weaponsmithing) somewhere, and six skillpoints along with it.

They should be wielding shortspears (same damage but 10 foot reach). If anyone is wondering why a change from longspears to shortspears, it is so that their attacks don't all suffer a miss chance (as per the room's description).

page 12

"Being twenty feet away provides full cover and a 50% miss chance."
This should read "concealment" Instead of cover. For the record, this wasn't in my origional; I had it 20% to make it easier on the DM (everyone can still see everyone).

The text as written makes it look like the salamanders cough and choke along with the PCs. It could be interprieted as them only being immune to the concentration check, though common sense will tell readers otherwise.

page 13

The "Other Features" still lists them as using +2 spears when it has been edited to +3 spears as per the SRD description. (If you're wondering why I changed it to +2 instead of +3, it was to balance out the additional treasure in the room.)



I'm pretty sure that's it!
 
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Tarchon, I see now. Admittedly we did screw your vision up and until you explained it I just wasn't seeing it and now I do. Sorry is all I can really say. I hate that you were the one who got caught in this overediting blunder but to be honest I expected it to happen despite our best efforts. Its sort of a pre-destined thing in a project like this that someone would eventually get their foot stepped on by accident.

My only problem is how do we prevent this again, besides making the editing process too difficult. I have an awareness now that I did not before and that will help but I am not so sure what else is to be done. I think this is going to be a matter of trial and error. If anyone has a suggestion . Thatis reasonable, then please let me know.

Of course now I'm all paranoid. :eek:

Later
 

Shallown said:
Tarchon, I see now. Admittedly we did screw your vision up and until you explained it I just wasn't seeing it and now I do. Sorry is all I can really say. I hate that you were the one who got caught in this overediting blunder but to be honest I expected it to happen despite our best efforts. Its sort of a pre-destined thing in a project like this that someone would eventually get their foot stepped on by accident.

My only problem is how do we prevent this again, besides making the editing process too difficult. I have an awareness now that I did not before and that will help but I am not so sure what else is to be done. I think this is going to be a matter of trial and error. If anyone has a suggestion . Thatis reasonable, then please let me know.

Of course now I'm all paranoid. :eek:

Later
Don't worry Shallown. As I've said above:"For one, instead of yanking the contributions as they are posted, I will keep the CD3 thread active for quite a while, inviting contributors to "fix" their rooms as I (or the other designing team members) catch things. I already asked some of the contributions to be revised and fixed with some minor stuff I flagged. This way, the chances that the contributor's work integrity gets altered are much smaller."

So yeah.
 

Finally got a chance to look at CD-03 so things should go better with some self editing. Thanks Trainz.

Any more Reviews and such?

Anyone??

Later
 

Caught one more bit of errata. The character with the +2 natural armor amulet should have a natural armor bonus to AC 1 point higher. He had natural armor 1, and I was under the 3.0 assumption that "natural armor amulet doesn't stack with natural armor." Well, in 3.5 natural armor amulets grant an "enhancement bonus to natural armor" which would stack. Ta-da.
 

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