Core materials: Action Points and Insider

[Clavis]

Wait. The PCs need to be afraid for their lives before any fun can be had? Really? I was not aware of that fact. I'll make sure to let my players know that they aren't allowed to have fun until their PCs are lying in a pool of their own blood.

Of course the entire game doesn't need to be combat-oriented. I myself prefer heavy roleplaying in games that I run and play in. The discussion, however, is about Action Points, which are NOT a role-playing mechanic, but one primarily to be used during combat. Therefore, whether or not Action Points detract from the thrilling nature of combat is at issue.

Inducing fear for the purpose of enjoyment is both primal and effective. It's why we go to horror movies (at lest before they became excuses for showing off CGI effects), and one reason why some people enjoy BDSM scenes. Some people enjoy the game on a purely intellectual, tactical level. 3rd edition seems aimed at them, and 4th edition promises to continue that orientation. Some people, however, like myself and those I play with, want a more visceral experience.

I am not saying nobody should ever use anything like action points. In fact, my belief is that individual DMs should be able to decide whether or not to use a mechanic like that, and the employees of WOTC shouldn't ram their personal preferences down DMs' thoughts. As for players, they vote with their feet. If a DM is a PC-killing jerk, they will leave the gaming table.

 

[Imp]

Eh, you can boogedy boogedy boogedy players who have action points at their disposal, you just have to do it a bit more often, or be sneakier about it.

I am generally more sympathetic to the Clavis/KarinsDad faction here ("The PCs need to be afraid for their lives before any fun can be had? Really?" well, you know, big appeal factor of RPGs = enjoying simulated danger in real-life safety) but I ain't exactly proud of fudging dice, and I'm glad to have a backup mechanic, "roleplaying" or not, so I don't have to do that crap.

Overall I'd be much happier with a more modular system than one where every aspect is tied together in an inextricable knot, so that's a bit of bad 4e news from where I'm sitting.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

In Eberron, action points always seemed to me to be more along the lines of "heroic effort", not "metagame butt-saving device".

That is, when you use an action point, it represents your character really giving it her all - blowing through the application of an invocation in a few seconds of perfect technique, stretching her muscles to the limit in order to make a long jump to safety, et cetera.

Also, it's deus ex machina, "God from the machine".

 

[pawsplay]

That's how I view Action Points and Second Winds.

They are Player deux ex machina. Sure, not as potent as DM deux ex machina, but they effectively amount to the same thing.

Lowering risk, but when the player decides to do so.

My play style leans toward immersion. In some games (like most superhero scenarios) I want some action points or whatever at my disposal, for those moments when I act like a superhero and do something really stupid because it's cool. But I don't see D&D as that kind of genre... I expect a slow but inevitible death toll, more like a thriller, fairy tale, or even a modern military adventure movie.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, that's an accurate assessment. I just don't see what suffers in that scenario. For players, it's lame to be rescued by an external set of factors that have nothing to do with their skill or instincts. I don't know why a DM would resent a bodak failing to kill a player because some finite resource was expended. There's still that moment of tension from turning instant death into a near miss.

Except that it is often not turning instant death into a near miss.

We are currently playing Eberron (with its action points) and the players have little risk of them not being effective when using them.

For example, a player might total 16 on his attack roll and knows that 18 hit a moment earlier, but 16 missed a few rolls before that, so it is pretty safe to use up an action point to hit this time. He doesn't know whether the enemy's AC is 17 or 18 at this point, but if it is 17, it's 100% safe and if it is 18, it's 84% safe. Those are fairly high odds.


To me, an improvement on Action Points would be to declare them before rolling to hit. In that case, it really would be risking the loss of the Action Point itself and it would rarely be done in "nearly sure thing" type moments. Instead, it would only be used in real emergency moments.

Used when needed, but a fair chance that it might not affect the situation at all.

As designed though, they are a lame metagaming mechanic. IMO.

 

[KarinsDad]

My play style leans toward immersion. In some games (like most superhero scenarios) I want some action points or whatever at my disposal, for those moments when I act like a superhero and do something really stupid because it's cool. But I don't see D&D as that kind of genre... I expect a slow but inevitible death toll, more like a thriller, fairy tale, or even a modern military adventure movie.

I agree.

1E and 2E DND used to have scary elements in it like Wights and Wraiths that could drain levels without a save. Planning on entering a Barrow was a serious consideration.

3E dropped Restoration to a 4th level spell and added saves to Energy Drain. They are not quite so scary.

Eberron added Action Points to protect the PCs. Most of the saving throws are made now, so they are even less scary.

I remember in 1E my PCs could lose an Ability Score point with a trap and there were no real way to get it back (shy of really high level magic). Things like that were REAL risks.

Similar to a computer game, DND is really becoming a "Opps. Character got fried. No worries. Bring him back, heal him, protect him, make it so that it never happened."

It's getting about as risky as Monopoly. 4E will probably start PCs out with 20+ to 30+ hit points like SWSE did:

"Oh my gosh, a first level adventurer could actually get killed by an attack. We can't have that. Let's give him a boatload of hit points to protect him. We can't have risk!"

 

[Charwoman Gene]

"Oh my gosh, a first level adventurer could actually get killed

by a rat or a housecat

We can't have that. Let's give him a boatload of hit points to protect him. We can't have risk!"

 

[KarinsDad]

by a rat or a housecat

If hit 4 to 16 times (or criticaled 2 to 8 times) depending on class and CON bonus. I seriously doubt a first level PC has ever been taken out by one of these. Maybe by a dozen of them.

Your point would be that the damage for cats and rats is too high???

 

[hong]

Things like that were REAL risks.

"Real risks"?

 

[Henry]

"Real risks"?

Steam Tunnels, Hong. Steam Tunnels.