core problem: duelist

[Felon]

The duelist wasn't designed for you. Not every class is equal.

Uggh. Very annoying little bit of equivocation there.

The duelist lacks a tactical hook, and that's a problem for people of a pragmatic nature.

The problem is, the PrC gets more skill points than a fighter, and gets features at every level. The guy who designed this class (or rather the guy who re-tolled the much-more-effective version from Sword & Fist) figured the way to balance the duelist against a fighter was to make all the features little turds.

Precision attack should probably be the hook, but it's staggered so that it just isn't worth it.

 

[Technik4]

The duelist lacks a tactical hook, and that's a problem for people of a pragmatic nature.

It has a tactical hook - take duelist to add your Int to your AC, gain a sneak attack-like ability, and some acrobatic moves.

The class gets BAB +1 at every level, d10 HD, 4+Int skills from a decent list, Good fort and a middling reflex (thanks to Grace), and bennies at every level.

Only in the power-crept 3.5 edition can you say that this class is lacking and mean it...

 

[Felon]

It has a tactical hook - take duelist to add your Int to your AC, gain a sneak attack-like ability, and some acrobatic moves.

The class gets BAB +1 at every level, d10 HD, 4+Int skills from a decent list, Good fort and a middling reflex (thanks to Grace), and bennies at every level.

Only in the power-crept 3.5 edition can you say that this class is lacking and mean it...

OK, this has been stated already throughout this thread, but some folks need it broken down for them real nice and simple:

Canny Defense only applies when wearing no armor and not using a shield. Thus, it's not a hook, that's a patch for a self-imposed nerf.

Precision Strike only applies when wielding a low-damage weapon and not using 2WF. That's not a hook, that's a patch for a self-imposed nerf.

And y'know what? They're crummy patches. Your AC and damage will still lag behind a warrior who didn't impose the nerf on themself and jsut does basic vanilla armor-and-greatsword stuff.

In short, only through irrational reactionaryism can you suggest that these features are adequate and mean it (see? we can all paint with broad brushes).

(and please, somebody out there--don't let the opportunity provided by all this talk about duelists with hooks and patches slip by)

 

[Victim]

Which is, basically, the DMG Duelist, but swapping Int for Cha.

Evidently not, since Duelists don't get to add their INT to damage under any circumstances.

 

[Nifft]

It's been my opinion that the Duelist was underpowered and poorly executed from day 1 -- the first time I read it, I remember thinking, who would ever take this?

No-one fights unarmored except the Monk, and Int is one of his dump stats.

Anyone using a Rapier is going to be looking for ways to enhance his criticals -- and this class does nothing for that.

There are styles of dueling which require an off-hand weapon -- and he can't use any of them.

- - -

Basically, what's needed is a class (or a set of feats, or whatever) that allow you to be better at fighting one guy, while remaining adequate at fighting a bunch of guys.

C, -- N

 

[Felon]

There are styles of dueling which require an off-hand weapon -- and he can't use any of them.

Sort of the opposite of the Complete Warrior's samurai, who is pigeon-holed into two-weapon fighting when traditionally kenjutsu is a two-handed style.

Of course, a duelist doesn't have to choose to scorn armor or keep a hand free. He can simply take the PrC, gain the features, and then simply not use them. And the sad statement on the PrC is that he's probably better off doing so.

 

[Nifft]

Of course, a duelist doesn't have to choose to scorn armor or keep a hand free. He can simply take the PrC, gain the features, and then simply not use them. And the sad statement on the PrC is that he's probably better off doing so.

... yeah, noticed that he's better off in Light armor for most of his career. That's just sad. But giving him full Int to AC at 1st level would make Duelist dipping exceptionally attractive to Wizards, who would then continue to avoid melee like the plague.

Honestly, the whole class could be a couple of feats, possibly [Tactical] feats, but possibly just regular ones.

Cheers, -- N

PS: IMC, "Precise Strike" is a feat which grants you +1d6 damage when you crit with a Finessed weapon. You can take it three times; the effects stack.

 

[Mrakvampire]

Stop this please... If YOU cannot build decent duelist - it's is YOUR personal problem, not a problem of PrC.

I will not post complete builds for you, just some usefull equipment and feats.
Bracers of Armor +X or Greater Mage Armor (SC)
Monk's Belt (Wis to AC, +1 AC)
Einhander (feat from PHBII)
Monk 1 lvl + Carmendine Monk (feat from Champions of Valor, Int to instead of Wis)
Swashbuckler 3 lvl (Int to damage)

Oh hell, and there is Complete Scoundrel with lovely skill tricks!

So, oh no! We are unarmored... and have... +16 AC for this unarmored state...
+5 Int ot AC (duelist) *also apply to touch*
+5 Int to AC (carmendine monk) *also apply to touch*
+6 armor to AC (greater mage armor)
Oh no, please give me back my old rusty full plate so I could have my old plain +10 AC... LOL.

 

[Darklone]

Yupp. Duelist is a great class for a monk. LOL. Haha.

And you can go TWF with a duelist, all you need to do is to use IUS. Stunning fist fits my view of a bar brawling dude with rapier pretty nicely.

All a duelist needs are good attributes and at least 2 levels of monk. High Wis, Int and Dex and your AC is fine even without Mage armor or some silly spells from a silly book (SC).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Stop this please... If YOU cannot build decent duelist - it's is YOUR personal problem, not a problem of PrC.

Moderator/

Scan up the thread for a moment. Notice how everyone else is having a conversation in a polite and mature fashion?


Stop the personal insults or you'll get an enforced holiday from the boards.