core problem: duelist

[pawsplay]

There is no reason at all to assume a duellist is actually going to cast aside their armor as soon as they enter the class. It's also not a given that entering a PrC as soon as possible is the most effective build.

Fig 4/Rog 3/Duelist enters the class one level later, but gives you Tumble ranks, and what amounts to +2d6 damage if you win initiative, which you will. Plus evasion is nice. Fighter gets you feats, and Weapon Specialization (rapier).

For the first two levels, stick with the mithril and such. Then at 3rd level, ditch the armor and switch to bracers. You'll end up with a fantastic touch AC.

Straight up fighter is nice, too, for a somewhat different kind of duelist. Ever noticed that you can Power Attack with a rapier? How about Leap Attack for a feat?

 

[lottrbacchus]

Awesome guys, I really appreciate the discussion.

@wayne- getting the int bonus slowly does kind of yank my chain- why does the monk get wis bonus all at once as a 'normal' character class while the supposed prestige class gets it gradually?

And the precise strike only working while using only 1 weapon clearly is for game balance, but it negates (in my mind) that awesome double kill miss cuthbert had in the second movie.

@ PS- thanks for the link.

@QGM- the point I was trying to make is that an Arcane Archer archering and the Shadow Dancer dancing shadily kick butt all over the Duelist dueling.

@Klaus- I was working out a Rogue/Fighter along very similar lines. We have a house rule class "PC Expert" that allows for fairly rapid acquiring of skills and feats that helps this sort of build immensely.

REQUEST: Which books are the Swashbuckler and Dashing Swordsman in?

Edit function is cool. Read the Swashbuckler link. Int to attack instead of AC, fine!

@ Whoever made the munchkin remark about Monk- I'm still giggling about that. Never heard that before. Were I a C/E munchkin, I'd just change the Monk over to an NPC Duelist class with rapier as an allowed weapon and a few other changes. The players don't get to see the NPC character sheets after all. They just would get to sit back and wonder how on earth the baddie managed to do all that funky stuff. Muhuhuhua!

I don't normally drink and work on my game, but a glass of rum might be in order for me to create: Monkchkin/Swashbuckler!!!!

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Shashbuckler is in Complete warrior.
Dashing swordsman is a joke. Literally. It is a "third party" prestige class from a book found in a bargin bin that a character took in the web comic "Order of the Stick".

 

[Klaus]

Shashbuckler is in Complete warrior.
Dashing swordsman is a joke. Literally. It is a "third party" prestige class from a book found in a bargin bin that a character took in the web comic "Order of the Stick".

Which is, basically, the DMG Duelist, but swapping Int for Cha.

 

[lottrbacchus]

OOTS is awesome. That's from the bit where the NPC gives the Bard the magic rapier?

 

[Seeten]

I don't know if you've access to Monte Cooks Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, but I've heard people say nice things about the 'unfettered' class.

HOWEVER,

Personally, I think that the best light armoured, stylish fighter *should* be a fighter - I'd like to see more feats that enabled a clever, charismatic fighter to hold his own against a strong tough fighter. At the moment the core has plenty of feats for strong fighters and some good ones for intelligent fighters (expertise/improved trip/disarm) but doesn't really have anything for charismatic fighters.

Introduce some good feats for charismatic fighters and I think you'd be good to go.

The other classic option for a duellist character is the rogue of course - the lightly armoured, agile fighter, tumbling all over the shop, uncannily dodging and bluffing his opponent and getting in nasty well-placed shots with his rapier. Boost the Con to improve his hit points (and staying power), use some SRD feats like Cloak Dance to give him some style and mechanical bonuses (a miss chance in that case), use his charisma skills of bluff and perform for style - you know what I mean.

Although 'everyone knows' that rogue != thief, it is surprising how often I've seen them played in just that fashion!

Cheers

Feats for a Charismatic *Fighter* do not help, because charismatic fighters have 1-3 skill points and no skills to spend them on, unless you are in a social setting with only horses(ride) and Goats(Handle Animal) since thats all the skills you get beyond jump and climb.

Swashbucklers are so good because they can have bluff, and diplomacy and gather info, and all the other face skills that fighters dont get.

 

[ivocaliban]

Swashbucking Adventures by AEG has quite a few feats that I've allowed in my swashbuckling campaign. One that might be of use to you is Dashing and Daring which allows an unarmored individual to add their Charisma modifer to their AC. There's also an additional +2 Charisma-related skill checks toward members of the opposite sex who witness your combat prowess.

Of course, AEG's classes and feats are often unbalanced (ex. Extra Finesse: Add Dex modifier to damage instead of Str for weapons that qualify for Weapon Finesse), but many of the ideas are worth salvaging for flavor alone.

 

[Klaus]

Feats for a Charismatic *Fighter* do not help, because charismatic fighters have 1-3 skill points and no skills to spend them on, unless you are in a social setting with only horses(ride) and Goats(Handle Animal) since thats all the skills you get beyond jump and climb.

Swashbucklers are so good because they can have bluff, and diplomacy and gather info, and all the other face skills that fighters dont get.

To be fair, Fighters *do* get Intimidate as a class skill.

The Thug variant from UA gives up Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency and the 1st-level bonus feat in exchange for 4 skill points/level and an expanded class list.

 

[AnonymousOne]

SRD feats like Cloak Dance to give him some style and mechanical bonuses (a miss chance in that case)

Ummm Cloak Dance is a Psionic feat ... How does a Rogue or Fighter take that?

Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)

Was there some Errata that I missed that allowed a Rogue that fulfilled the prereqs to take that feat?

 

[Klaus]

No, Cloak Dance is a [General] feat that was published in the XPH. Much like Rapid Metabolism.