Core races/classes too limited?
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Quasqueton, I have decided from this and other posts that you and I are of a like mind.
I like having limitations and working creatively within those limitations. Races and classes should reflect the tone of the campaign. That means if there are no half-celestial kobold monk/assassins in the campaign, that's just the way it is. Personally I liked OD&D because of the limitations. (Of course the expanded OD&D also had tons of creature classes, optional classes, and prestige classes.)
Some people have problems coming up with an original personality or story for their character, so instead they come with an original race/class/template combination. It's really hard to see how most of the monster race, template, and PrC options fit into a traditional fantasy adventure group, especially in worlds with small populations or limited economies. However, they are what sells. Look at the latest issue of Dragon magazine. When is anybody ever going to use all those prestige classes?
Having the rules for the options is nice, because sometimes they are appropriate. But you really have to pick and choose.
I like having limitations and working creatively within those limitations. Races and classes should reflect the tone of the campaign. That means if there are no half-celestial kobold monk/assassins in the campaign, that's just the way it is. Personally I liked OD&D because of the limitations. (Of course the expanded OD&D also had tons of creature classes, optional classes, and prestige classes.)
Some people have problems coming up with an original personality or story for their character, so instead they come with an original race/class/template combination. It's really hard to see how most of the monster race, template, and PrC options fit into a traditional fantasy adventure group, especially in worlds with small populations or limited economies. However, they are what sells. Look at the latest issue of Dragon magazine. When is anybody ever going to use all those prestige classes?
Having the rules for the options is nice, because sometimes they are appropriate. But you really have to pick and choose.
apocalypstick
First Post
Quasqueton said:
I don't think so. Matter of fact, I'm starting up a new game over on the PbP boards where all the characters are required to be Human. Period. Not one complaint so far. And they're coming up with some excellent character ideas, to boot.
I suggest asking your players what they want to play. Anything at all. let them describe their neat half-fiend ogre paladin or whatever to you, and then say:
"Great concept, great idea, great character. Perfect. Except you're human."
If they flat-out refuse, then tell them they can play the race they want, but their racial modifiers/abilities are all as per a human.
Then, when they complain about that, you will know them for what they truly are.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Personally I think the standard has risen due to the availability of other systems that have customisation of characters built in (eg GURPS, M&M etc). DnD still keeps classes too tightly defined - such as the classic complaint about Fighters = Heavy combat tanks No swashbucklers allowed. Even Feats haven't worked in this regard because they are so few and so players start to rely on Prestige Classes and non-core classes to create their vision.
(me I want a classesless feat based system)
Pretty much the same with the races and DnDs habit of create 1000 subtypes per race - why play an elf when I can play an elf with wings and the ability to create tornadoes. If DnD would make Heritage feats and cultures core rather than creating new subraces every turn I think things might be better....
(me I want a classesless feat based system
)Pretty much the same with the races and DnDs habit of create 1000 subtypes per race - why play an elf when I can play an elf with wings and the ability to create tornadoes. If DnD would make Heritage feats and cultures core rather than creating new subraces every turn I think things might be better....
Hammerhead
Explorer
Tonguez said:DnD still keeps classes too tightly defined - such as the classic complaint about Fighters = Heavy combat tanks No swashbucklers allowed. (me I want a classesless feat based system
No swashbucklers? Ever hear of a little class called the rogue?
Sanackranib
First Post
nonstandard races
as one of the old school gamers here I can safly say that I have played all the core races classes and enjoyed most of them . . . never really got into gnomes though . . .(shrugs) . . . I enjoy playing new things and would chaff in a game where the new or differen't was not even an option. multi classing/non standard races/ and PrC's are the spice of the the game not to be confused with the meat and potatoes of the core rules and some of us out here like our meat and potatoes HOT!
as one of the old school gamers here I can safly say that I have played all the core races classes and enjoyed most of them . . . never really got into gnomes though . . .(shrugs) . . . I enjoy playing new things and would chaff in a game where the new or differen't was not even an option. multi classing/non standard races/ and PrC's are the spice of the the game not to be confused with the meat and potatoes of the core rules and some of us out here like our meat and potatoes HOT!
Drakmar
Explorer
I think that it comes from a variety of changes in the RP community overall. For starters, I think that the game mechanics have been refined to a point that it is now easily possible to be a Half-Fiend/Insectiod-Orge/Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer and have actual rules for it. It's been simplified to a point that anybody can do it. It's easy.
The second part to it for me has to do with how society has change over the years.. I think that we tend to have less patience now, so rather than spend the time developing a character's personality.. we opt instead for giving the character "mechanical" quirks and basing our rping on them.
The other factor is that if you look at a roleplayers evolution they tend to start out leaning towards the munchkin side of the scale and if they get past that, and continue playing eventually get more in to the roleplaying and characterisation.
I allow people to play strange races.. or templates.. but I limit them. If you play someone with the Replitian Template, I want you to modifiy you life view to suit.. ie, you might consider everybody either Predator or Prey, and behave accordingly.
s'all about yer culture.
nuff ramblin.
The second part to it for me has to do with how society has change over the years.. I think that we tend to have less patience now, so rather than spend the time developing a character's personality.. we opt instead for giving the character "mechanical" quirks and basing our rping on them.
The other factor is that if you look at a roleplayers evolution they tend to start out leaning towards the munchkin side of the scale and if they get past that, and continue playing eventually get more in to the roleplaying and characterisation.
I allow people to play strange races.. or templates.. but I limit them. If you play someone with the Replitian Template, I want you to modifiy you life view to suit.. ie, you might consider everybody either Predator or Prey, and behave accordingly.
s'all about yer culture.
nuff ramblin.
Quasqueton said:
Yes, I could just use the core races and classes. No, I would not feel restricted. But that's just me. It's just a matter of if I know the DM has made other options available, I might explore them. But, otherwise, I am more than happy and content exploring interesting aspects of the core classes and races.
YMMV
rushlight
Roll for Initiative!
I think that in each version of the game people like to play with all the toys. While that's true, when making characters my group generally decide on a concept for the character before selecting anything else. Then we look for classes and rules that fit that concept, if possible. Last we make sure that they aren't too overpowered.
The last character I played was a Half-Elf/Centaur Druid/Shifter. I know this sounds a bit cheesy, but here's the concept we came up with: In the game there was a race of shapeshifters from elven decent, primarily evil. One of those who was neutral managed to escape from the group and found a grove of Centaurs, where he took their form and settled in. Soon, he found a wife, and had a child. But before he was born (that child being my character) the group found him and killed him, along with most of the Centaurs. So I drifted into the Human lands, using my limited shapeshifing powers (I was a low level Shifter) to blend in while I sought revenge.
The problem was that a Centaur by itself was too powerful when we created the character, so we mixed in Elf blood with the intention of diluting the Centaur stats and powers. Basically I was an Elf with an extra +1 to Wis and +1 to STR, and no Dex bonus. Oh, and I was Large. And in the beginning I couldn't take Human form. That sucked for quite a while. Nasty devices like ladders and walls were my mortal foes. Anyway, it all worked out, and we had a good time. I did enjoy playing a character that was outside the norm.
The last character I played was a Half-Elf/Centaur Druid/Shifter. I know this sounds a bit cheesy, but here's the concept we came up with: In the game there was a race of shapeshifters from elven decent, primarily evil. One of those who was neutral managed to escape from the group and found a grove of Centaurs, where he took their form and settled in. Soon, he found a wife, and had a child. But before he was born (that child being my character) the group found him and killed him, along with most of the Centaurs. So I drifted into the Human lands, using my limited shapeshifing powers (I was a low level Shifter) to blend in while I sought revenge.
The problem was that a Centaur by itself was too powerful when we created the character, so we mixed in Elf blood with the intention of diluting the Centaur stats and powers. Basically I was an Elf with an extra +1 to Wis and +1 to STR, and no Dex bonus. Oh, and I was Large. And in the beginning I couldn't take Human form. That sucked for quite a while. Nasty devices like ladders and walls were my mortal foes. Anyway, it all worked out, and we had a good time. I did enjoy playing a character that was outside the norm.
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