Core Rules Survivor: FINAL ROUND!
- Thread starter Nifft
- Start date
UltimaGabe
First Post
I absolutely positively hate grappling.
DM: Alright, he's got you grappled and pinned. It's your turn.
Player: Alright, I'm gonna try to get out of the grapple.
DM: Make a grapple check.
Player: (Rolls) Alright, natural 20! I got a 25!
DM: (Rolls) He got a 21! You're no longer pinned.
Player: Alright! I'm gonna try to move away.
DM: Oh, sorry, you're still grappled.
Player: But... I just beat him with a grapple check.
DM: Yeah, that means you're not pinned. I think.
Player: Oh... alright, I guess that sort of makes sense. Well, I've got these armor spikes, doesn't he take damage?
DM: Make a grapple check.
Player: Uh... (Rolls) I got a 12.
DM: Sorry, he doesn't take any damage.
Player: But... I'm covered in spikes. And he's pinning me to the floor with his body. Why doesn't he take damage?
DM: Actually, he's grappling you, not pinning you. Oh, wait... (Rolls) Now he's pinning you.
Player: ....I'm going home.
DM: Alright, he's got you grappled and pinned. It's your turn.
Player: Alright, I'm gonna try to get out of the grapple.
DM: Make a grapple check.
Player: (Rolls) Alright, natural 20! I got a 25!
DM: (Rolls) He got a 21! You're no longer pinned.
Player: Alright! I'm gonna try to move away.
DM: Oh, sorry, you're still grappled.
Player: But... I just beat him with a grapple check.
DM: Yeah, that means you're not pinned. I think.
Player: Oh... alright, I guess that sort of makes sense. Well, I've got these armor spikes, doesn't he take damage?
DM: Make a grapple check.
Player: Uh... (Rolls) I got a 12.
DM: Sorry, he doesn't take any damage.
Player: But... I'm covered in spikes. And he's pinning me to the floor with his body. Why doesn't he take damage?
DM: Actually, he's grappling you, not pinning you. Oh, wait... (Rolls) Now he's pinning you.
Player: ....I'm going home.
UltimaGabe
First Post
Oh, not to mention the horrors that come from Improved Grab and Swallow Whole, both of which use the grapple mechanic... (And this is, more or less, a personal experience.)
DM: Alright, so the shark has bitten you and you failed two consecutive grapple checks, so you're in its stomach. You take 24 points of damage from the bite, and 16 points of damage from the acid in its stomach. Your turn.
Me: Great. I'm gonna cut my way out with my sword.
DM: Ooh, that's a two-handed weapon. You can't use that.
Me: Dang it! Alright, I'm gonna try to climb out.
DM: Make a grapple check.
Me: (Rolls) *Sigh* I failed. I'll try again. (Rolls) Alright! I rolled really well.
DM: Alright, you made it!
Me: Awesome! I'm gonna swim away.
DM: No, you're still in its mouth.
Me: .....
DM: Alright, its turn. It got a 45 on its grapple check. You're back in its stomach. Oh, and you take another 20 points of damage.
Me: Alright... I'm, uh, gonna try to get out again. (Rolls, and fails. Rolls again, and fails.)
A couple turns pass. My character is close to dead.
Me: Alright, I need to roll really high, and it needs to roll really low. Uh... twice. (Rolls, and, amazingly, succeeds. Twice.) YES!!!
DM: Good job! You're out of its mouth. Now it's taking its turn. (Rolls) It hits you. Make another grapple check.
Me: (Fails)
DM: Alright, you're back in its stomach...
DM: Alright, so the shark has bitten you and you failed two consecutive grapple checks, so you're in its stomach. You take 24 points of damage from the bite, and 16 points of damage from the acid in its stomach. Your turn.
Me: Great. I'm gonna cut my way out with my sword.
DM: Ooh, that's a two-handed weapon. You can't use that.
Me: Dang it! Alright, I'm gonna try to climb out.
DM: Make a grapple check.
Me: (Rolls) *Sigh* I failed. I'll try again. (Rolls) Alright! I rolled really well.
DM: Alright, you made it!
Me: Awesome! I'm gonna swim away.
DM: No, you're still in its mouth.
Me: .....
DM: Alright, its turn. It got a 45 on its grapple check. You're back in its stomach. Oh, and you take another 20 points of damage.
Me: Alright... I'm, uh, gonna try to get out again. (Rolls, and fails. Rolls again, and fails.)
A couple turns pass. My character is close to dead.
Me: Alright, I need to roll really high, and it needs to roll really low. Uh... twice. (Rolls, and, amazingly, succeeds. Twice.) YES!!!
DM: Good job! You're out of its mouth. Now it's taking its turn. (Rolls) It hits you. Make another grapple check.
Me: (Fails)
DM: Alright, you're back in its stomach...
Nail
First Post
The rule I HATE most in that pile is "Turn Undead", as not only does it use a table (*so* 1980's) but when turning works (which it doesn't after level 12) it causes the Undead to flee.
Flee? I don't want them to flee! I want them to die. err...again.
The rest are fine actually. Why all the hate for counterspell? Strange. It's an under-used mechanic, but....who cares? really?
Flee? I don't want them to flee! I want them to die. err...again.
The rest are fine actually. Why all the hate for counterspell? Strange. It's an under-used mechanic, but....who cares? really?
IanB
First Post
I wonder if the hate for counterspelling is maybe due to confusion about whether we're voting for how well (badly) the attached rules system actually works, or whether we're voting on the actual usefulness of the action in game.
Counterspelling is mechanically fine but strategically pointless; grappling is often a great idea but the rules are obscure, overly complicated, and unclearly written. I would have expected it to be more overwhelmingly one or the other that would win (or turn undead) if everyone was using the same criteria for voting.
Counterspelling is mechanically fine but strategically pointless; grappling is often a great idea but the rules are obscure, overly complicated, and unclearly written. I would have expected it to be more overwhelmingly one or the other that would win (or turn undead) if everyone was using the same criteria for voting.
borc killer
First Post
Nail said:
Yea it does need an over hall. Are there any 3rd party alternatives? My issue with it is that it ends up being a “I win button” or a wasted turn.
Maybe something more like a skill check? D20+chr+knowledge religion vs. HD+chr. Then you could have a varying degree of effect as well. If you bet it the monster is stunned. If you beat it by 5 it is paralyzed. If you beat it by 10 it is destroyed. And maybe if you missed you check by 5 or more you bolster them (+2 to attacking you) and if you miss by 10 or more you get sickened. All effects would stack. How would that do?
And to UltimaGabe: Do you play in my group? Because that happens every gosh darn time we play /sigh
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Rystil Arden
First Post
Sometimes when its a requirement and not an option to either kill the rule or use it (like Massive Damage Save), the two should go hand in hand. I thought that MDS was universally ignored for being annoying and making the game randomly less fun at high levels with low but still extant probably unless you instead eliminate the 1-is-automatic-failure rule (sorry Bolthar, I know you have 192 HP, but the enemy Wizard used an Empowered Fireball again / enemy Rogue attacked you again / enemy Barbarian Power Attacked you again, so just roll to make sure it isn't a 1. What, you got a 1? Oh, you're dead then. Yes I know it was a mook. Sorry!).Nifft said:
Apparently from the last poll, people actually liked MDS. I'm somewhat confused.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Woo hoo! Grapple did not lose! Grapple did not lose!
Actually, I think the suckage of Counterspell runs very deep. It touches on many on the peculiar weaknesses of the D&D spell system in particular and mechanics in general.
What I do not like about Counterspell:
(1) Ready Action -- these tend to be painfully good or painfully bad, and are very dependent on DM fiat to make sense of the situation
(2) The requirement for specific prepared spell or Dispel Magic -- that is very restrictive
(3) The uncertainty of Dispel Magic itself -- "I have the perfect spell for this situation, so I have a 50% chance of wasting my round."
(4) The general weakness of spell categories/themes in D&D -- If I want to be a superb counterspelling I can take a feat so that I can counter spellcasters just like me. I would think that a "Water Wizard" would be pretty good for this when matched against a "Fire Wizard", but that turns out not to be the case.
Actually, I think the suckage of Counterspell runs very deep. It touches on many on the peculiar weaknesses of the D&D spell system in particular and mechanics in general.
What I do not like about Counterspell:
(1) Ready Action -- these tend to be painfully good or painfully bad, and are very dependent on DM fiat to make sense of the situation
(2) The requirement for specific prepared spell or Dispel Magic -- that is very restrictive
(3) The uncertainty of Dispel Magic itself -- "I have the perfect spell for this situation, so I have a 50% chance of wasting my round."
(4) The general weakness of spell categories/themes in D&D -- If I want to be a superb counterspelling I can take a feat so that I can counter spellcasters just like me. I would think that a "Water Wizard" would be pretty good for this when matched against a "Fire Wizard", but that turns out not to be the case.
