Cosmology Part II

[Geron Raveneye]

To quote myself from the news thread...

Know what kills me here? The fact that if I want to have the old Inner Planes back, I will either have to shoehorn them into the existing cosmology, which will look pretty wonky, or I will have to chuck the default and make up my own. So where is this "great freedom" from restrictions again? From where I stand at the moment, and from what I've been told, it don't look that much different.

The thing is, I'm not that hung up about the Great Wheel myself, since I've always used the old BECMI D&D cosmology when it came to outer planes...which came down to astral dominions floating in a vast Astral Plane (I'll reserve my judgement about if they simply copy/pasted Frank Mentzer there or not until after I've seen the details. ). Sure, the Great Wheel is the D&D "default" cosmology, but since I started with the Mentzer D&D version, I didn't care too much.

But the whole Inner Planes stuff they are changing is just as inflexible as the Great Wheel was supposed to be before. And I'm pretty sure there are more than just me that like the Inner Planes.

And yes, before you ask, the changes 3E did to the Plane of Shadow got ignored by me as well. I always liked the "meeting plane" between Positive and Negative from the old MotP better.

 

[DaveMage]

Does this help those that are angrily opposed to the new cosmology? How does this statement make those of you concerned with the dropping of the Great Wheel and reworking of the Elemental Planes?

The concern (if I were switching to 4E) is not so much that there is "room" for the other planes, but that all "official" supplementary material will be written as though the old cosmology doesn't exist.

However, it will be a boon for Paizo/Necromancer and similar companies who want to use the old cosmology since they will be able to create the old system and release products based on that.

 

[The Little Raven]

But the whole Inner Planes stuff they are changing is just as inflexible as the Great Wheel was supposed to be before. And I'm pretty sure there are more than just me that like the Inner Planes.

The Elemental Tempest sounds much more flexible than planes made of solid earth or neverending fire, which are plain crappy environments for planar adventuring.

 

[The Little Raven]

However, it will be a boon for Paizo/Necromancer and similar companies who want to use the old cosmology since they will be able to create the old system and release products based on that.

They'll have to create a similar cosmology, because the Outer Planes as listed in the 3.5 DMG are the IP of WotC, and using them as they are written would be a violation. That's why the planes are not listed in the 3.5 SRD.

Me? I foresee articles on D&D Insider about the Great Wheel and it's place in Greyhawk and/or Planescape.

 

[Aloïsius]

which are plain crappy environments for planar adventuring.

Why ?
Playing psionic giant moles is great fun ! You borrow, eat giant worms, borrow, eat giant worms, borrow...

 

[DaveMage]

They'll have to create a similar cosmology, because the Outer Planes as listed in the 3.5 DMG are the IP of WotC, and using them as they are written would be a violation. That's why the planes are not listed in the 3.5 SRD..

The planes were mostly if not all named in 1E after historical names. They don't need to worry about any IP issues for use of those. For example, they can't call it the Nine Hells of Baator. But they can certainly call it the Nine Hells.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The Elemental Tempest sounds much more flexible than planes made of solid earth or neverending fire, which are plain crappy environments for planar adventuring.

Sorry, you missed my point. I'm not talking about the Inner Planes as environments for planar adventuring...and to be frank, I never had any problems whatsoever to make them interesting adventuring environments either...I was talking about the fact that I have to "shoehorn" the old Etheral Plane and the old Energy/Eemental Planes into this new "Elemental Tempest" just the same way you had to "shoehorn" a new Outer Plane into the Great Wheel. So sorry, they only switched one inflexibility for another in my opinion.

Psionic giant moles...if hyperbole is the best example of problems with the old Inner Planes as adventuring areas, kindly don't expect me to take you seriously.

 

[Aloïsius]

Psionic giant moles...if hyperbole is the best example of problems with the old Inner Planes as adventuring areas, kindly don't expect me to take you seriously.

This was not a serious post.

 

[The Little Raven]

Sorry, you missed my point. I'm not talking about the Inner Planes as environments for planar adventuring.

If they're not environments to be used in the game, then quite frankly, I find them utterly worthless. I don't need books full of things just to explain where fire elementals come from, I need books full of things that will be present in my games.

and to be frank, I never had any problems whatsoever to make them interesting adventuring environments either.

If you go the "Let's plan a day trip into the Plane of Fire!" route, which requires you to be fully prepared (load up on all this fire resistance stuff). If you had your villain flee near the end of an adventure and they just followed him from the ancient evil temple onto the Plane of Fire, they would simply die. Their entire usefulness is predicated solely upon the DM informing the players ahead of time so that they can have all the proper potions, scrolls, and such ready.

That's just lame.

I was talking about the fact that I have to "shoehorn" the old Etheral Plane and the old Energy/Eemental Planes into this new "Elemental Tempest" just the same way you had to "shoehorn" a new Outer Plane into the Great Wheel. So sorry, they only switched one inflexibility for another in my opinion.

In the Great Wheel, you had a predefined number of planes, and if you wanted to add new deities, you had to shoehorn then into pre-existing planes (which is why the elf gods hang with the Greek gods who hang with Sune, etc.), whereas with the new setup, you just toss in your god's new, unique realm without worrying about that nonsense.

As for the Positive/Negative Energy Planes (ugh, something I always found to be utterly ridiculous, simply to explain why healing is conjuration of positive energy), that's not that difficult either... there are verdant places within the Elemental Tempest in which the growth of life accelerates (positive energy), and near the hole torn by the Abyss are places in which life has been leached away (negative energy). The other four inner planes are already represented without having to be lame like "This is a plane of solid rock. Unless you have a bunch of spells ready, you plane shift and are entombed permanently."

Psionic giant moles...if hyperbole is the best example of problems with the old Inner Planes as adventuring areas, kindly don't expect me to take you seriously.

Was this supposed to be directed towards me? If so, please do me a favor and re-read my post, since I never mentioned this nonsense.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Playing psionic giant moles is great fun ! You borrow, eat giant worms, borrow, eat giant worms, borrow...

What exactly do psionic giant moles 'borrow'? They seem like fairly self-contained worm-eating machines to me. Do they need my hat? Because too bad, man, it's mine.