Cosmology Part II

Klaus said:
The Elemental Chaos sounded so cool, I HAD to put it together:

elemental_chaos.jpg

A psionic giant mole gobbling a few giant worms and conversing with a vampiric mouse clutching an ornate tome sounds pretty cool too right now. I can just picture the tattoos and floating crystals on the mole in the earthen tunnel. The caption underneath would say something like "Come on, I just want to borrow it and see if psionics are in yet." The title on the tome would be "WotC Freelancer 4e prerelease copy PH."
 

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Mourn said:
If they're not environments to be used in the game, then quite frankly, I find them utterly worthless. I don't need books full of things just to explain where fire elementals come from, I need books full of things that will be present in my games.



If you go the "Let's plan a day trip into the Plane of Fire!" route, which requires you to be fully prepared (load up on all this fire resistance stuff). If you had your villain flee near the end of an adventure and they just followed him from the ancient evil temple onto the Plane of Fire, they would simply die. Their entire usefulness is predicated solely upon the DM informing the players ahead of time so that they can have all the proper potions, scrolls, and such ready.

That's just lame.



In the Great Wheel, you had a predefined number of planes, and if you wanted to add new deities, you had to shoehorn then into pre-existing planes (which is why the elf gods hang with the Greek gods who hang with Sune, etc.), whereas with the new setup, you just toss in your god's new, unique realm without worrying about that nonsense.

As for the Positive/Negative Energy Planes (ugh, something I always found to be utterly ridiculous, simply to explain why healing is conjuration of positive energy), that's not that difficult either... there are verdant places within the Elemental Tempest in which the growth of life accelerates (positive energy), and near the hole torn by the Abyss are places in which life has been leached away (negative energy). The other four inner planes are already represented without having to be lame like "This is a plane of solid rock. Unless you have a bunch of spells ready, you plane shift and are entombed permanently."



Was this supposed to be directed towards me? If so, please do me a favor and re-read my post, since I never mentioned this nonsense.

Well, it's obvious that our different opinions stem from different tastes and creativities, so I'll simply say I'm glad you'll find the new cosmology fun to use, and leave you to your notion of having solved my problem with it. Happy gaming.

Oh, and no...the post about moles was directed at the post directly after yours...sorry, but I don't know how to multi-quote without a big hassle, so I rarely do it.
 



From Rich Baker's Blog said:
Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign).

And we needed a new edition for this? I could do this with 1e, 2e, and 3.x.

In this game one of the 1st things I learned was that the 'rules' were guidelines if you wanted something different or wanted to change them then do so, as long as you had fun playing the game (the very 1st commandment for any game).

I for one don't need a new edition to give me the freedom to create my own cosmology. I had that freedom all along. Basicly I'm saying when it comes to something like this- I'm my own game designer. From what I've read in other threads it seems that a lot of other people were doing their own 'thing' when it came to a cosmology anyway so I question why all the hoopla that this is a great thing that they are doing for us. A lot of us were doing it anyway.

Sorry if this seems a bit bitter but I just don't understand all the excitement over this. I did edit out the more bitter dregs though (great now I have a vision of Spock singing from the TOS episode 'Plato's Stepchildren').

Oh, and Klaus, great picture BTW! If they come out with a 4e MotP this pic needs to be in it.
 


Alaric_Prympax said:
And we needed a new edition for this? I could do this with 1e, 2e, and 3.x.

In this game one of the 1st things I learned was that the 'rules' were guidelines if you wanted something different or wanted to change them then do so, as long as you had fun playing the game (the very 1st commandment for any game).

I for one don't need a new edition to give me the freedom to create my own cosmology. I had that freedom all along. Basicly I'm saying when it comes to something like this- I'm my own game designer. From what I've read in other threads it seems that a lot of other people were doing their own 'thing' when it came to a cosmology anyway so I question why all the hoopla that this is a great thing that they are doing for us. A lot of us were doing it anyway.

Sorry if this seems a bit bitter but I just don't understand all the excitement over this. I did edit out the more bitter dregs though (great now I have a vision of Spock singing from the TOS episode 'Plato's Stepchildren').

Oh, and Klaus, great picture BTW! If they come out with a 4e MotP this pic needs to be in it.
There are more reasons than simply that for bringing out a new planes-mechanic. Like for example less harsh environment effect rules that don't instantly destroy your party or doesn't allow them to enter these places at all.
 

Mourn said:
The Elemental Tempest sounds much more flexible than planes made of solid earth or neverending fire, which are plain crappy environments for planar adventuring.
Uh, why should every plane be a place for adventuring?

Some planes shouldn't be places for Dungeon Crawl of the Day, the Elemental Planes are one of those places, they exist because they make metaphysical sense to a quasi-medieval setting.

Maybe I'm not in sync with the new design philosophies, but D&D setting elements, such as cosmology should be written to fit the setting as a whole, not the system.

Why should a planar cosmology be designed first and foremost as a place for adventuring? Most campaigns will probably never go planar, or might do so on rare occasion, the planes are there for lore and exposition, not as just an infinite realm of monsters patiently waiting easy execution by PC's for their neatly arranged piles of treasure.

There can and should be places the PC's might be physically capable of going (with the right spells) but would probably be a waste of time to adventure there. Should every Kingdom be ripe for adventuring and no Kingdom in a D&D world have a large and effective standing army that keeps monsters and crime in check or be a place of absolute oppressive evil such that PC's would want to adventure any place else?

Then again, they are blowing up Forgotten Realms to make it fit the "points of light" model, so apparently WotC has decided that every place in every D&D world must be a ripe field for adventuring and nothing can be there just for flavor or background or exposition. It makes me wonder if in the new "improved" Forgotten Realms they are going to make it possible for non-Elves to set foot in the Isle of Evermeet, since Evermeet is a terrible place to adventure because only elves can go there and it's very heavily guarded. Since every place in the game has to be there just for ease of adventuring rather than story or exposition or lore, not just planes.
 

wingsandsword said:
Uh, why should every plane be a place for adventuring?

If you can't set an adventure there, why waste book-space on it? I'm paying for game source-books, not a treatise on metaphysics.

Why would a game publisher devote space describing things they know will have zero practical application at the game table.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-fluff". Stuff like monster ecologies, NPC backgrounds, political history and mythology can all be incorporated into a game to make adventuring more fun.

The paraelemental plane of slush? Not so much.
 

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