Could Mirage Arcana be used to cause someone to drown themselves?

[moritheil]

A different example might make this clearer:
Create an illusory bridge over a chasm with a glamer spell. What will this bridge do? We know it doesn't support any weight, since it cannot affect gravity in any way. The only thing it does is, it seems to offer resistance if you reach out with your hand or foot to touch it.
Now what happens if a character tries to cross it?

IMO this is not a problem at all - it's actually an old DM trick. (If you make your Will save, you fall, but if you fail it, you stand.)

Note that it doesn't have to affect gravity in any way because a real bridge doesn't alter gravity either.

I'd compare the tactile effect of an illusion to a VR glove

I really don't like the trend of comparing powerful and general magical effects to specific real-life objects (which by nature are going to be limited), but in this case I'm not even sure it's apt. Does the illusion have total control over your tactile senses? In that case, clearly the absence of feeling is within its purview. Whereas, by its very nature, a VR glove can give you the presence of tactile stimulation but not the absence of it.

 

[werk]

I disagree. We're not talking senses here, we're talking physical reality. You can make someone see, hear, smell...even taste and feel a wall...but no illusion will stop someone from walking through the wall. No saving throw needed. Illusion fails.

Wait a minute, that is exactly when the save to disbelieve comes into place, (interacting with the illusion) and if they fail that save they can not walk through the wall...it is real to them.


I guess I'm lost on your point here... Illusions can make something out of nothing but cannot make nothing out of something?

 

[moritheil]

it is real to them.

This is an excellent phrasing that I think deserves to be pointed out. Real-life illusions depend on perception and the victim limiting himself or herself . . . magical illusions are magically enforced.

This is the sort of thought I'm talking about:

However, if you were trying to, say, jump through the wall, and you didn't make your will save, then you might unintentionally jump short because your brain tells you, there's a wall. But it won't stop unvoluntary movements because this is not something that your brain can control.

Your brain stopping your movement has nothing to do with it. Magic is stopping you from crossing through that wall.

 

[Jhaelen]

Wait a minute, that is exactly when the save to disbelieve comes into place, (interacting with the illusion) and if they fail that save they can not walk through the wall...it is real to them.

Yes, because your brain will make you stop before you'd walk through.

But what if someone pushes you through the wall? Then it doesn't matter one bit if you believe the wall to be real or not. You will be pushed through the wall since it doesn't offer any real resistance.
Again, the relevant part from the SRD:

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can.

 

[Jhaelen]

woot! my first double post

 

[Jhaelen]

Your brain stopping your movement has nothing to do with it. Magic is stopping you from crossing through that wall.

No, it doesn't! That was exactly the point of my bridge example: The glamer of a bridge will not allow you to cross the chasm. Neither will you be able to walk over the glamer of a floor convering a pit. There is no magic force to stop you from falling through the glamer because a glamer does not have a real effect

 

[moritheil]

No, it doesn't! That was exactly the point of my bridge example: The glamer of a bridge will not allow you to cross the chasm. Neither will you be able to walk over the glamer of a floor convering a pit. There is no magic force to stop you from falling through the glamer because a glamer does not have a real effect

I was talking about illusions in general and the propensity to equate them with real-life tricks based on perception. In the specific case of figments and glamers, you are right that there is no real effect:

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

However, what exactly is meant by "real effect" is up to interpretation. You like to credit the brain with stopping people; I like to state that it is an unspecified magical force. The circumstances and effects are clear, but to state that it must be the brain and thus involuntary movement will get you through it even if you fail your save is not something that metaphysically sits well with me.

However, this still does not have much impact on Mirage Arcana, which confounds all the senses that anyone has mentioned so far as being able to give you a clue about the illusion. Gravity is not a sense, and your statements about gravity are still broadly incorrect.

 

[werk]

No, it doesn't! That was exactly the point of my bridge example: The glamer of a bridge will not allow you to cross the chasm. Neither will you be able to walk over the glamer of a floor convering a pit. There is no magic force to stop you from falling through the glamer because a glamer does not have a real effect

Right, but would you still think you were crossing the bridge?

Would the illusion end when you are betrayed by the illusion (fall thru), or when you realize you are betrayed by the illusion (hit ground)?

 

[moritheil]

Quoting myself from earlier to make it absolutely clear:

a real bridge doesn't alter gravity either.

Gravity, as I said, is also not a sense; our appreciation of gravity comes from senses.

There is also this which has gone unanswered:

I really don't like the trend of comparing powerful and general magical effects to specific real-life objects (which by nature are going to be limited), but in this case I'm not even sure it's apt. Does the illusion have total control over your tactile senses? In that case, clearly the absence of feeling is within its purview. Whereas, by its very nature, a VR glove can give you the presence of tactile stimulation but not the absence of it.

 

[Shayuri]

Wait a minute, that is exactly when the save to disbelieve comes into place, (interacting with the illusion) and if they fail that save they can not walk through the wall...it is real to them.


I guess I'm lost on your point here... Illusions can make something out of nothing but cannot make nothing out of something?

No...my point is that illusions can't make something out of nothing, nor nothing out of something. They can mask, or they can create appearances. That's it.

If they fail the save to disbelieve the wall, then they continue to percieve the wall. But the wall does not stop them from passing through it. It is an illusion. I disagree with the assertion that because something manipulates your perceptions, it can stop you from moving through something that isn't there.

The sole exception being illusions with the Shadow descriptor, which are more than just illusions...but that's a whole other ball of wax.