• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Pathfinder 1E Could Pathfinder take D&D's place...

ahayford

First Post
"World of Dungeoncraft" sounds better, I think :D

There's nothing wrong with incorporating elements from famous computer games per se, so I don't see how that is an issue. My gripe with 4th edition is not that it incorporated elements from famous MMOs, but that it incorporated some of the worst elements (like calling things "controllers" and other similarly silly names :p)

Giving the classes well defined roles, and tailoring their powers as such, is one of my favorite things from 4e. I think it makes it very easy for new players, particularly those that play games like WoW, to dive in and now what their character is suppose to do, or helps them pick a class that does what they want to do. At least as far as combat is concerned.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Androrc

First Post
Giving the classes well defined roles, and tailoring their powers as such, is one of my favorite things from 4e. I think it makes it very easy for new players, particularly those that play games like WoW, to dive in and now what their character is suppose to do, or helps them pick a class that does what they want to do. At least as far as combat is concerned.

I think it sets things too much in stone. And in any case, couldn't the names be less silly?
 

Matt James

Game Developer

Valid points do not excuse bad behavior. If you cannot make your point without getting personal and rude, your point isn't nearly as valid as you think.

Dannager won't be continuing in this conversation due to his comportment. Others who continue in that line are apt to get a vacation from the site.

Agreed. I wouldn't expect anything less from EN World.
 

Arevashti

First Post
Conversely: If I stated, "Pathfinder isn't Pathfinder, at least not in my opinion, it's just a dumb game for socially stunted manchildren," would you take that as a jest? Or would it be OH MAN SERIOUS ABOUT AR PEE GEE TIME!

My bet's on the latter.
I seem to have missed where he actually said any such thing about 4e, as opposed to having said something basically neutral that simply seems to be a disproportionately large berserk button.

I'm 97.13% sure I could simply say "Rubber baby buggy bumpers" and somehow someone would either take offense or say I'm doing it wrong.

It IS the internet after all.
You're doing it wrong. It's at least 97.75%, probably closer to 98%. ;)

"World of Dungeoncraft" sounds better, I think :D

There's nothing wrong with incorporating elements from famous computer games per se, so I don't see how that is an issue.
As I said, the statement itself is neutral. It's simply picked up a lot of irrelevant baggage.
 
Last edited:

Darwinism

First Post
I think it sets things too much in stone. And in any case, couldn't the names be less silly?

Come up with better names that people can grok easier?

In any case, the roles are nearly always more of a suggested type of play rather than a you-must-do-this-always. Fighters and wizards can be built to focus on damage, rogues can be built to focus on control, Paladins can be built to focus on healing/buffing and so on. Nothing is set in stone in the slightest.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Come up with better names that people can grok easier?

In any case, the roles are nearly always more of a suggested type of play rather than a you-must-do-this-always. Fighters and wizards can be built to focus on damage, rogues can be built to focus on control, Paladins can be built to focus on healing/buffing and so on. Nothing is set in stone in the slightest.

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric - these have been the grok'd terms for nearly 40 years! Nothing is easier than that.
 

Darwinism

First Post
Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric - these have been the grok'd terms for nearly 40 years! Nothing is easier than that.

Except those don't explain what they do nearly as well as Defender, Controller, Striker, and Leader. Each one of the role names tells you what a class from that role does by default; keeping legacy class names for roles would just be confusing. A Rogue would have Rogue as a role, and so would the Barbarian, and Ranger. A Cleric would have Cleric as a role, but so would a Warlord and Ardent.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Except those don't explain what they do nearly as well as Defender, Controller, Striker, and Leader. Each one of the role names tells you what a class from that role does by default; keeping legacy class names for roles would just be confusing. A Rogue would have Rogue as a role, and so would the Barbarian, and Ranger. A Cleric would have Cleric as a role, but so would a Warlord and Ardent.

To you, perhaps, I have never used those terms in my game, not in 32 years - they are completely alien to me. I can guess what they mean, but how they specifically apply to a given character build is beyond me. Maybe 'striker' means fighter, I'm guessing, but I think 'fighter' is a much better word, and more familiar term. I can 'grok' that very easily.

Say the word 'cleric', and I completely understand the meaning and nuance of the term - whether a cleric is a leader, striker, controller, defender, I have no idea, but a cleric is a cleric, he cast's divine spells and heals people. I don't need another term to describe what a cleric is, I know what a cleric is.

Trying to come up with four buzz words to describe combat techniques forces us to learn new terminology. Why? Don't you know what a rogue is? Why do you need some tactical title for rogue? The rogue concept is pretty straight forward.

In my games most PC classes can opt to do any job they desire. Sure a fighter is probably better for hitting things in direct combat, but the fighter could opt to change his battle tactics based on whim of the moment. He doesn't nor shouldn't be required to perform some fixed task - not if he doesn't want to. Maybe he wants to control the battlefield or defend the casters in the party - his job changes based on circumstance of a given encounter. By forcing my fighter to take the term 'striker' suggests that's the only thing he can do - strike. My fighters tend to be more versatile than that. You can't pigeon-hole any PC to a specific role, that's up to them to decide.
 
Last edited:

Darwinism

First Post
To you, perhaps, I have never used those terms in my game, not in 32 years - they are completely alien to me. I can guess what they mean, but how they specifically apply to a given character build is beyond me. Maybe 'striker' means fighter, I'm guessing, but I think 'fighter' is a much better word, and more familiar term. I can 'grok' that very easily.

Defender, striker, leader, and controller are hard to understand? How? What they're primarily focused on is right there in the name. A defender defends things. What does a striker do? He hits things. What does a controller do? Controls things. Leader's the vaguest of the bunch, to be sure, but healer doesn't quite cover it. And if there was only one class for a role, then a circular definition might work, but that's not the case.

Say the word 'cleric', and I completely understand the meaning and nuance of the term - whether a cleric is a leader, striker, controller, defender, I have no idea, but a cleric is a cleric, he cast's divine spells and heals people. I don't need another term to describe what a cleric is, I know what a cleric is.

But that's because you've been playing the game for decades. Of course you know what a cleric does. To other people not inside the niche, however, saying, "He's a cleric," means nearly nothing, nor is, "It's like a cleric," a good way to describe other classes that may have a similar role in the party.

Trying to come up with four buzz words to describe combat techniques forces us to learn new terminology. Why? Don't you know what a rogue is? Why do you need some tactical title for rogue? The rogue concept is pretty straight forward.

I really am not that put out by learning four simple terms, but if you are just don't use them?

In my games most PC classes can opt to do any job they desire. Sure a fighter is probably better for hitting things in direct combat, but the fighter could opt to change his battle tactics based on whim of the moment. He doesn't nor shouldn't be required to perform some fixed task - not if he doesn't want to. Maybe he wants to control the battlefield or defend the casters in the party - his job changes based on circumstance of a given encounter. By forcing my fighter to take the term 'striker' suggests that's the only thing he can do - strike. My fighters tend to be more versatile than that. You can't pigeon-hole any PC to a specific role, that's up to them to decide.

But, as a fighter, he's still better suited towards being a defender than other classes because of class features, and that's all that roles do. Let me ask you something; why is a class name, something that many people allow to define their characters, acceptable when a general role that class is suited to is not? What line is crossed by dividing classes into things they're innately suited for for easy referencing? I'm just having trouble imagining how you think a fighter is a subtle and nuanced term but as soon as you tack striker or defender onto it they can only do one thing.
 

ahayford

First Post
I think it sets things too much in stone. And in any case, couldn't the names be less silly?

I won't argue the roll name other then to say it clearly defines what it does. As for the stone side of things, there are so many flavors of classes, I think you can find a "caster" that does what you want if you look, it just might not be called a wizard.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top