Pathfinder 1E Could Pathfinder take D&D's place...

I wonder if Hasbro ever sold off the D&D brand, if Paizo would pick it up? D&D 5E/PF 2E could be the same thing. haha...
Quoted for posterity.

I don't know if they will comment, but I think that the Paizo folks should see this--if only for conversation around the water cooler--if I get their User Names correct.

[MENTION=2174]Erik Mona[/MENTION]
[MENTION=26115]PaizoCEO[/MENTION]
 

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Actually in the Future of Paizo Seminar (Chimera Games Podcast on 3.5 Private Sanctuary), this question comes up - what if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand. Both Jay Jacobs and Lisa Stevens talks about the what if, along with the unlikely that Hasbro ever sells anything. I'm sure its been talked about around the water cooler before.
 


if it quaks

and walks and talks like it, it's D&D, innit.

Without getting into pointless debates stretching the limits of semantics, it's amusing to see on the Wotc forums them trying to shove this under the rug with the edition zealots getting all defensive about it. (the truth hurts, don't it). I like 4e, but I hate Wizards. They release buggy games to sell more subs and then nerf middling toons half-way through a totally video-gamey campaign. Seriously, I did more epic stuff with my 5th level character in our pathfinder campaign, that's only four months old, than we did in nearly three years of the 4e grind.

I like 4e for its optimization potential, not for its balance. Let's face it, not everyone has 22 points of stats in life, to be placed perfectly so they line up to a final destination. The randomness of stats and HP alone makes PF more true to D&D than 4e could ever hope to be. Something was lost, never to be found again. Whatever 4e is, owning the copyright to D&D or not, D&D belongs to our imaginations and by now it's a generic term in popular lexicon that no corporation truly owns. No, wizards, just by virtue of buying Gary Gygax's name, you do not own our imaginations nor the rules. Game rules are not copyrightable, and in any sane society a 35 year old statute of limitations would have prevented Beholders, Trolls, Greyhawk, and so on, from being p0wned by people out to make a quick buck rather than those of us who truly own it. I.e. by virtue of being dedicated to the hobby and having bought splat books from 4 editions and their derivatives.

Thing is, I'd be all for a 5e, whoever owned it, if it didn't suck. But by virtue of it being owned by a money-grubbing corporation that doesn't live and breathe and die by the game (their chief earner is Magic, as many have pointed out), I don't see why we should pay any particular credence to their claim that their system deserves to be called D&D and others don't.

Mindless obedience to inane laws is anathema to me. It surprises me that so many here defend the non-argument that copyright trumps reason. It is essentially an exercise double-think. When we play Pathfinder, we are playing it because it IS D&D. It is not merely similar. If you walk out your door and introduce yourself as Bob, are you no longer John?

I call 4th ed Dungeons and Dragons 4e, more so than I refer to it as D&D. I can turn my hat around and pretend like Pathfinder isn't D&D to please the thought-police (tm), but seriously. Come on. It has more claim to be called D&D by virtue of its spirit, its nature, its character, than much of what the glorified chess game that wizards came up with is. NB : I love D&Chess. But it's not D&D.
 
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I like 4e for its optimization potential, not for its balance. Let's face it, not everyone has 22 points of stats in life, to be placed perfectly so they line up to a final destination. The randomness of stats and HP alone makes PF more true to D&D than 4e could ever hope to be. Something was lost, never to be found again. Whatever 4e is, owning the copyright to D&D or not, D&D belongs to our imaginations and by now it's a generic term in popular lexicon that no corporation truly owns. No, wizards, just by virtue of buying Gary Gygax's name, you do not own our imaginations nor the rules. Game rules are not copyrightable, and in any sane society a 35 year old statute of limitations would have prevented Beholders, Trolls, Greyhawk, and so on, from being p0wned by people out to make a quick buck rather than those of us who truly own it. I.e. by virtue of being dedicated to the hobby and having bought splat books from 4 editions and their derivatives.

Couple points

1) A lot of people use pt buy in 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5. Myself included. Particularly for new players.

2) Make no mistake. Paizo is a company. It exists to generate money. No more or less so then Hasbro/WoTC. At its core, it could give a :):):):) about you. Luckily, currently the people owning/running it have a very high standard of quality and happen to be gamers themselves. The key difference here between the two companies, is that the hobby is in the blood all the way up to the top of Paizo (easier to see at smaller companies). Whereas at WoTC, the leadership includes the Hasbro board of directors. Some people forget WoTC was a very small company once, trying to launch a silly card game with spells and crap on it. Psssh who would buy that? Back before Hasbro bought them out, I remember being excited that WoTC bought DnD and hoped they'd do something cool with it. Then 3e launched and reinvitalized RPG gaming. Its easy to forget what they gave us when we are bitching about what they've taken away.
 

2) Make no mistake. Paizo is a company. It exists to generate money. No more or less so then Hasbro/WoTC. At its core, it could give a :):):):) about you. Luckily, currently the people owning/running it have a very high standard of quality and happen to be gamers themselves. The key difference here between the two companies, is that the hobby is in the blood all the way up to the top of Paizo (easier to see at smaller companies).
If this is true, they are doing an amazing job of pretending to care. Paizo has consistently gone the extra mile in Customer Service in my experience and from what I've read online.

Also, please note that Eric's grandma doesn't allow four-letter words. B-)
 

2) Make no mistake. Paizo is a company. It exists to generate money. No more or less so then Hasbro/WoTC. At its core, it could give a :):):):) about you. Luckily, currently the people owning/running it have a very high standard of quality and happen to be gamers themselves... (SNIP) Its easy to forget what they gave us when we are bitching about what they've taken away.

While I don't subscribe to quite as rose-colored a view as Gorgoroth's statement about owning our imaginations or key trademarks, I also am very aware that the same people who gave us the OGL and a revitalized D&D are NOT the same people who run WotC today, and those few who are still there, have very different requirements on their jobs than Peter Adkison, Ryan Dancey, Lisa Stevens, etc. did back in 1997 - 2001.

It's funny, because something Lisa Stevens said in a Paizocon seminar (recorded on Podcast) resonated with me, when I occasionally still hear people talk about how the OGL damaged D&D: When explaining her company's business strategy, she said (paraphrasing) "Make no mistake, it's Ryan's business model we're following." Besides Paizo's success being definitely due to Lisa's and Vic's savvy, it's also been a bit of vindication for Ryan Dancey's vision for the OGL, as well. :) I'm not talking about Paizo's use of the OGL, I'm referring to their constant and continuing contribution to it, and the reinforcement of their own sales of core product and adventure paths it seems to keep bringing.
 

Also remember, aside from Lisa Stevens, many of Paizo's current staff were members of WotC, back in 3x, so when talking about the great people at WotC during that time, you're actually also including most of the top folks at Paizo now, including Eric Mona and James Jacobs.

Its not so easy to separate one entity from the other looking back on history. While those at Paizo are no longer at WotC, so today, its easier to tell them apart. When reflecting to times past, its more difficult to distinguish one from the other.
 


That, of course, may be a good thing, as D&D always seemed to thrive in a small company headed by individuals who loved the game, rather than a corporate minded leadership.
What time period is this? Its seems like D&D has always had to struggle against either really bizarre bussiness decisions and people who had no idea how to run a business.
The randomness of stats and HP alone makes PF more true to D&D than 4e could ever hope to be.
You mean randomly screwing people over?
Mindless obedience to inane laws is anathema to me. It surprises me that so many here defend the non-argument that copyright trumps reason. It is essentially an exercise double-think. When we play Pathfinder, we are playing it because it IS D&D. It is not merely similar. If you walk out your door and introduce yourself as Bob, are you no longer John?
D&D is a trademark not a copyright. The rule sets fall under copyright.
They release buggy games to sell more subs and then nerf middling toons half-way through a totally video-gamey campaign. Seriously, I did more epic stuff with my 5th level character in our pathfinder campaign, that's only four months old, than we did in nearly three years of the 4e grind.
Of course because Pathfinder is broken in a way that you can do that.
 
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