D&D 5E (2024) Could the DnDNext Sorcerer be revived as its own class?

[EzekielRaiden]

That is absolutely my belief too. And I think while the line between subclass and class is rather subjective, D&D has done a decent job of trying to split the difference. I'm not sure assassin or illusionist could have been a full class with multiple subclasses of their own, but barbarian or artificer are.

I'm also kinda bored with fighter. As I said, I find "I hit things with weapons" a rather boring and soulless class when their are a bunch of other classes that also hit things with weapons and do cool things like rage, smite, or whatever the ranger does. I'd rather have a few more unique martial classes (knight, warlord, swordmage, "mythic" hero) and put fighter out to pasture.

Agreed on illusionist, not so much on assassin, but that's neither here nor there. There are some things which just aren't quite enough on their own. Were we to start from scratch, in a world that had never been (heavily) shaped by D&D itself, some of the things we currently recognize as "classes" probably wouldn't be. Druid, for example, would probably be a single application of a more general "Priest" class, and "Cleric" as we know it wouldn't exist (since it was specifically created to be a hybrid "armored priest"/"Van Helsing" thing in order to take a specific player down a peg who had become OP due to being a vampire). Conversely, we might have gotten a "Shapeshifter" class! Who knows.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to get away from Fighter. Much as I would prefer a suite of more specific options, there really is a sizable audience for the "Generic Everyman" archetype, especially if that "Generic Everyman" comes with minimal mechanical engagement. For my part, that means we need to find a cleverer solution--something that preserves what current-Fighter fans love about Fighter, but which avoids the Scylla of "Fighter sucks all the wind out of every other martial's sails" or the Charybdis of "the other martials eat so much of the martial pie, there's nothing left for Fighter." The fact that the 5e Paladin is considered one of the best classes in the game...and yet its Fighter is still generally quite well-liked (other than the flaws with at least the 5.0 Champion and Banneret)

I'd also like the wizard to have an identity beyond having access every arcane-coded spell and a spellbook. Those two things eat 90% of their identity and power budget. It's really telling that 2024 couldn't find anything to do with them that wasn't op. I think the wizard should have a more generalist and spell list and let the other classes get the best in a certain field. (The bard gets the best enchantments, the sorcerer the best boom magic) Rather than the wizard getting everything but a few select signature spells per class. That would also open up room for classes like witch, necromancer and psion to have a place.

The path forward I see for the Wizard is to make it ACTUALLY a researcher and innovator, and someone genuinely connected to a tradition and occult study, rather than the thing we have, which is functionally a solo-act flagrant plagiarist and rote-memorizer. I think there's quite a lot we could mine out of both "academia" as we understand it and Hermeticism, Kabbalism, Theosophy, Neo-Platonic Gnosticism, etc. That is, the class seems to be very fertile ground for examining the eternal tension between developing a true collaborative community that checks others' work and builds a corpus of knowledge, aka what we would call "science" today, and the desire for individualist Ultimate Enlightenment, the hoarding of esoterica and grimoires and artifacts, being "initiated" into the Secret Truths, etc., what we would call "the occult" today.

A Wizard which bridges that space between "magical scientist" and "occult philosopher", torn between worlds that are so similar and yet so opposed, seems like just the right space to find thematic, inspiring mechanics that won't be stupidly OP.

 

[Yaarel]

The path forward I see for the Wizard is to make it ACTUALLY a researcher and innovator, and someone genuinely connected to a tradition and occult study, rather than the thing we have, which is functionally a solo-act flagrant plagiarist and rote-memorizer. I think there's quite a lot we could mine out of both "academia" as we understand it and Hermeticism, Kabbalism, Theosophy, Neo-Platonic Gnosticism, etc. That is, the class seems to be very fertile ground for examining the eternal tension between developing a true collaborative community that checks others' work and builds a corpus of knowledge, aka what we would call "science" today, and the desire for individualist Ultimate Enlightenment, the hoarding of esoterica and grimoires and artifacts, being "initiated" into the Secret Truths, etc., what we would call "the occult" today. A Wizard which bridges that space between "magical scientist" and "occult philosopher", torn between worlds that are so similar and yet so opposed, seems like just the right space to find thematic, inspiring mechanics that won't be stupidly OP.

I call this kind of Wizard flavor the "protoscientist". I dont think the Wizard can specialize into it until the Psion class comes into existence. The original Magic-User was, and the current Wizard continues to be, the every-kind-of-magic class. It hoards all of the resources and aspects of magic, including the Psion with its innate magic directly willed by mind over reality. Once the Psion comes into existence, the original Magic-User can truly radiate into the separate classes, while the Psion inherits the aspect of personal innate magic.

Then the Non-Psion Wizard can double down as the protoscientist. It has little or no personal magic power. Instead, all magic is external natural forces of creation, and none of it is personal. It would precisely specialize in material components such as specific minerals or plants within peculiar quasi-scientific formulas, that include motions of bodyparts that correspond to the twelve constellations, and other aspects of sympathetic magic. Some formulas might require the substance of "ether" understood as the Wizards own soul added in the form of a mental intention during the procedure. But even this isnt personal magic, but merely an ingredient within the cosmic apparatus. Rituals would often be elaborate ceremonies that might involve anything from phases of the moon to extracting a single drop from a cauldron of complex ingredients culled in complex scenarios over specific lengths of time.

The Warlock and the Sorcerer are neither fish nor fowl. They are neither personal magic nor cosmic magic. They came into existence during 3e for the purpose of being a place for alternative gaming mechanics instead of vancian spellcasting mechanics. The vancian Wizard never ceased being the every-magic class. Now in 5e, vanican is gone, and all magic spontaneous. The 5e Wizard is the 3e Sorcerer. Warlock is still distinguished mechanically, by Short Rest refresh versus Long Rest. But the flavor concepts of both Warlock and Sorcerer are muddled, often redundant. The Warlock is said to draw on external power yet wields it personally. The Sorcerer is said to draw on personal power yet depends on memorizing external spell components, external transformative origins, dragon bloodlines and planar radiations. Same as the Warlock.

None of these lore entanglements can clearly resolve until the Psion exists and its personal magic divorces from the rest of the classes. Then the Wizard can no longer be the every-kind-of-magic class. Finally, the Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Cleric, Druid, and Bard, each settle into their respective in-setting flavor niches.

Where primal and psionic are two sides of the same coin, perhaps reorganize the mages into the following power sources.

Psionic (soul): Psion, Bard.
Primal (nature beings): Sorcerer, Druid.
Divine (human sciences): Cleric, Warlock.
Arcane (physical sciences): Wizard, Swordmage.

This arrangement serves as starting point to individuate the mage classes into distinctive identities.

 

[Yaarel]

'Swordmage' was the identity for a single edition. It's not been swordmage before or since.

Though out of all of the arcane gish attempts, it certainly had the most going for it both narratively and mechanically.

(This arcane gish talk is making me want to start another arcane gish thread)

I view the 4e Swordmage as a "full caster", whose spells have melee range.

The Swordmage differs from a "part-caster part-martial" gish.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I view the 4e Swordmage as a "full caster", whose spells have melee range.

The Swordmage differs from a "part-caster part-martial" gish.

Precisely.

A Swordmage is not "I am a physical combatant who happened to dabble in magic." Yet a Swordmage is also not "I am a magician who happened to dabble in physical combat."

A Swordmage is someone for whom melee combat IS magic, and magic IS melee combat. (They may, of course, also have other talents--what gets represented as Rituals--but that's an elective choice, not an inherent part of the class.)

Edit: And while I don't fully agree with the other things you wrote in the previous post, it's definitely an extremely interesting take (particularly the Bard-as-psionic-class idea). I don't think I would do things quite that way myself. But it's definitely worth keeping in mind.

 

[Yaarel]

Edit: And while I don't fully agree with the other things you wrote in the previous post, it's definitely an extremely interesting take (particularly the Bard-as-psionic-class idea). I don't think I would do things quite that way myself. But it's definitely worth keeping in mind.

For me, the Bard is obviously psionic. The magic of the "soul" of an artist, whose innate powers are telepathic influence, psiwarper teleportation and prescience, and metamorphic shapeshifting and healing.

For the primal mages, the Druid is a shamanic conflict mediator for a community of nature beings. The Sorcerer actually is a non-human nature being (becoming this by various means).

Then Cleric and Warlock would both be "Astral" mages. The Astral Plane is a mindscape made out of thoughtstuff. This platonic realm of ideals is "somewhere else". The Astral mages tune into it via symbols, cultures, ethics, prayers, mantras, oaths, in other words the power of linguistics and sociology, the human sciences. Warlock is a darkside Cleric, with 'occult' flavor 'channeling' Astral powers.

Finally, the Wizard can be a Wizard. This protoscience, the quasi-physical sciences with their weird formulas and impersonal precision. I updated this "arcane" protoscientific Wizard, to add the Swordmage, equally an arcane scientist but functioning differently from the Wizard.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I identify the wizard with the archetype of the scholar, the sorcerer with the artist, the warlock like the dealer or trafficker exchanging favors, and the psion like the cultivator from xianxia fiction or the philosopher who wants to know herself. The wizard wants to control the nature, the psion the ascension of her own soul. The wizard wants to ride a dragon, the psion wants to become one with the dragon.

A "monster-touched" class would be like "release your inner beast"

Inner Beast Transformation

The power to transform into/fuse with one's inner beast. Sub-power to Inner Beast, Inner Monster, and Inner Kaiju. Variation of Inner Being Transformation and Monster Morphing. Inner Beast Morphing Inner Monster Morphing/Transformation Users can become/fuse with their inner beast, gaining new or...

powerlisting.fandom.com

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I view the 4e Swordmage as a "full caster", whose spells have melee range.

The Swordmage differs from a "part-caster part-martial" gish.

See I view the idea as a half caster. The arcane/elemental equivalent of ranger and paladin.

This is part of the arcane gish identity problem. As every DnD edition has completely changed the name, narrative, and mechanics of the arcane gish class (often having multiple arcane gish classes in a single edition), it means that peoples idea of one has no united rallying point.

 

[Yaarel]

See I view the idea as a half caster. The arcane/elemental equivalent of ranger and paladin.

This is part of the arcane gish identity problem. As every DnD edition has completely changed the name, narrative, and mechanics of the arcane gish class (often having multiple arcane gish classes in a single edition), it means that peoples idea of one has no united rallying point.

I feel the "arcane gish" is what the 5e Alchemist is, or could be.