D&D (2024) Could the DnDNext Sorcerer be revived as its own class?

What is sorcerer at this point? Metamagic? A feat nabbed from previous editions at the very last minute which previously all casters had, simply because the first playtest failed.

Bloodlines? Which happen to overlap pretty much completely with warlock patrons.

That's all it is. A wizard with no spellbook and the metamagic feat glued on, who happens to use warlock subclasses rather than wizard ones.
So the sorcerer bloodlines (mind you, they stopped using this term because many of them aren't inherited) have one real crossover (Great Old One and Aberrant) and one squint and you can see it (fathomless and storm are vaguely water and lightning related). You can really stretch and say Divine Soul and Celestial are both healers. And they have made the shadow sorcerer more necromantic to match Undeath. Still, draconic, wild, clockwork and lunar do not match up with archfey, fiend, genie, hexblade or undying in any way. And I could argue the bard, barbarian, ranger and paladin have as many crossover subclass themes as sorcerer and warlock?
 

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So the sorcerer bloodlines (mind you, they stopped using this term because many of them aren't inherited) have one real crossover (Great Old One and Aberrant) and one squint and you can see it (fathomless and storm are vaguely water and lightning related). You can really stretch and say Divine Soul and Celestial are both healers. And they have made the shadow sorcerer more necromantic to match Undeath. Still, draconic, wild, clockwork and lunar do not match up with archfey, fiend, genie, hexblade or undying in any way. And I could argue the bard, barbarian, ranger and paladin have as many crossover subclass themes as sorcerer and warlock?
Exactly.

If we take the "squint and they're similar enough" stance, easily half the classes of the game simply disappear in a puff of logic--all while genuinely reducing the number of well-supported archetypes the game contains.

Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue could all be Fighter subclasses--if you're willing to make them little more than paper-thin mechanics desperately trying to contain a vast thematic package. But you don't see people clamoring for the removal of Barbarians, for example, even though their thing LITERALLY could just be a Fighter subclass feature and would lose almost nothing! (To be clear, I'm not hating on the Barbarian as a class, I think it's good to have and I really quite like some of the new creative ideas like Path of the World Tree, but those are pretty clearly "okay, what can we invent that justifies this class?" and not "this is an obvious extension of the core theme" the way that, say, Cleric domains are.)

Class reductionism nearly always suffers from some degree of special pleading, because any argument which justifies folding existing classes together almost always also justifies merging Wizard and Cleric or Rogue and Fighter, two things most ultra-reductionist fans refuse to do. It's quite rare to find folks who fully take their own arguments seriously and thus collapse things down all the way to a two- or one-class system. (Two if you decide that "casts spells" and "uses weapons" are enough to justify different classes; one if you don't; both are compatible with most arguments that claim certain classes should be merged with others.)

Of course, a lot of this then actually is rooted in a completely different argument, generally one in the space of "system doesn't matter" and/or hostility to mechanical representation of thematic or conceptual elements beyond the absolute bare-minimum bare-bones elements, which is a common but not universal position taken by old-school fans. Folks who aren't so much into old-school design generally favor having at least some degree of inherent specialization in class design, so that different class fantasies truly feel distinct, rather than being smushed together into an indistinguishable grey mass.
 

If we take the "squint and they're similar enough" stance, easily half the classes of the game simply disappear in a puff of logic--all while genuinely reducing the number of well-supported archetypes the game contains.
I'm pretty much always in the 'more classes please' group.

It's just that I don't understand how everyone can swear that warlord, psion, and swordmage should totally be subclasses, while the sorcerer is completely unique and deserves its spot in the PHB.

I see people bringing out how ranger should be a subclass pretty much daily, despite it standing out as a unique class far more than the sorcerer does.

I'm not against the sorcerer as a class (I'm more against the wizard as a class). I just think that the sorcerer needs to go back to the drawing board to decide what its class mechanics should actually be, beyond 'wizard with metamagic and no spellbook'. The innate sorcery was something that got my attention, and I actually feel that in 6e it could be worth building the class around.
 

I'm pretty much always in the 'more classes please' group.

It's just that I don't understand how everyone can swear that warlord, psion, and swordmage should totally be subclasses, while the sorcerer is completely unique and deserves its spot in the PHB.
Well, I don't! I think all of those should be classes, and a few more besides. (I'm of the opinion that 5e is missing between five and twelve class-fantasies. I'm not what I would call a "maximalist"--not the opposite of a minimalist, that is--but rather advocating what I see as a complete roster of all the common, well-supported class-fantasies from D&D-adjacent fiction.)

I see people bringing out how ranger should be a subclass pretty much daily, despite it standing out as a unique class far more than the sorcerer does.
Certainly. The only class that gets more of that, in my experience, is Paladin, and that irritates me too.

I'm not against the sorcerer as a class (I'm more against the wizard as a class). I just think that the sorcerer needs to go back to the drawing board to decide what its class mechanics should actually be, beyond 'wizard with metamagic and no spellbook'. The innate sorcery was something that got my attention, and I actually feel that in 6e it could be worth building the class around.
Oh believe me, I hear you on the Wizard thing. It's a crying shame that 5e COULD have made the Wizard incredibly interesting, and been the first edition--yes, even before my beloved 4e!--to make it actually deliver on the promise of being a hermetic pseudo-academic. Instead, we got nothing of the sort.
 

Oh believe me, I hear you on the Wizard thing. It's a crying shame that 5e COULD have made the Wizard incredibly interesting, and been the first edition--yes, even before my beloved 4e!--to make it actually deliver on the promise of being a hermetic pseudo-academic. Instead, we got nothing of the sort.
I feel that the wizard, fighter, and arcane gish all suffer the same problem, but the result is different for each due to their unique circumstances.

'Person who does magic' ends up just being other casters plus more, as people can't justify the 'person who does magic' being worse at magic than other classes in any way.
'Person who fights' ends up eating every single potential option for a martial class as subclasses, and even the few martials which escaped still get people saying they should just be subclasses of 'person who fights'.
'Person who does magic and fights' just ends up so diluted when combined with the historical issues it's had that it can't coalesce into a solid identity due to all the other classes who fight and do magic, but in slightly different ways.
 

If Hasbro is convinced thanks a monster-touched class they could sell action-figures style "Gormiti" maybe they are encouragered to do it. My idea is a reimagination of the franchise "Visionaries" where instead holographic banners they have got some totem talisman working like a biopunk armour-simbiont (do you remember the bionoids from Spelljammer?) but more style henshin hero (like power rangers).

And if I have said it before I will say again, the idea of a class what spend spells to get monster-traits it sounds a little like the totemist shaman from "Magic of Incarnum".

If this new class could reload the special attacks with ten-minutes-rest after each encounter, then it would need a lot of playtesting and feedback.
 

Exactly.

If we take the "squint and they're similar enough" stance, easily half the classes of the game simply disappear in a puff of logic--all while genuinely reducing the number of well-supported archetypes the game contains.

Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue could all be Fighter subclasses--if you're willing to make them little more than paper-thin mechanics desperately trying to contain a vast thematic package. But you don't see people clamoring for the removal of Barbarians, for example, even though their thing LITERALLY could just be a Fighter subclass feature and would lose almost nothing! (To be clear, I'm not hating on the Barbarian as a class, I think it's good to have and I really quite like some of the new creative ideas like Path of the World Tree, but those are pretty clearly "okay, what can we invent that justifies this class?" and not "this is an obvious extension of the core theme" the way that, say, Cleric domains are.)

Class reductionism nearly always suffers from some degree of special pleading, because any argument which justifies folding existing classes together almost always also justifies merging Wizard and Cleric or Rogue and Fighter, two things most ultra-reductionist fans refuse to do. It's quite rare to find folks who fully take their own arguments seriously and thus collapse things down all the way to a two- or one-class system. (Two if you decide that "casts spells" and "uses weapons" are enough to justify different classes; one if you don't; both are compatible with most arguments that claim certain classes should be merged with others.)

Of course, a lot of this then actually is rooted in a completely different argument, generally one in the space of "system doesn't matter" and/or hostility to mechanical representation of thematic or conceptual elements beyond the absolute bare-minimum bare-bones elements, which is a common but not universal position taken by old-school fans. Folks who aren't so much into old-school design generally favor having at least some degree of inherent specialization in class design, so that different class fantasies truly feel distinct, rather than being smushed together into an indistinguishable grey mass.
That is absolutely my belief too. And I think while the line between subclass and class is rather subjective, D&D has done a decent job of trying to split the difference. I'm not sure assassin or illusionist could have been a full class with multiple subclasses of their own, but barbarian or artificer are.

I'm also kinda bored with fighter. As I said, I find "I hit things with weapons" a rather boring and soulless class when their are a bunch of other classes that also hit things with weapons and do cool things like rage, smite, or whatever the ranger does. I'd rather have a few more unique martial classes (knight, warlord, swordmage, "mythic" hero) and put fighter out to pasture.

I'd also like the wizard to have an identity beyond having access every arcane-coded spell and a spellbook. Those two things eat 90% of their identity and power budget. It's really telling that 2024 couldn't find anything to do with them that wasn't op. I think the wizard should have a more generalist and spell list and let the other classes get the best in a certain field. (The bard gets the best enchantments, the sorcerer the best boom magic) Rather than the wizard getting everything but a few select signature spells per class. That would also open up room for classes like witch, necromancer and psion to have a place.
 

I feel that the wizard, fighter, and arcane gish all suffer the same problem, but the result is different for each due to their unique circumstances.

'Person who does magic' ends up just being other casters plus more, as people can't justify the 'person who does magic' being worse at magic than other classes in any way.
'Person who fights' ends up eating every single potential option for a martial class as subclasses, and even the few martials which escaped still get people saying they should just be subclasses of 'person who fights'.
'Person who does magic and fights' just ends up so diluted when combined with the historical issues it's had that it can't coalesce into a solid identity due to all the other classes who fight and do magic, but in slightly different ways.
Wizard is too specific an implementation (intelligent book user) for the role of being a generic caster. The fighter sacrifices it's identity for flexibility. Other classes (bard, barbarian, etc) sacrifice flexibility for identity. The wizard demands both flexibility (access to nearly all arcane magic) and identity (intelligent book caster).
 

An assasin class is possible: poisoner, holy slayer, impostor, oppresor (brute force and legbreaking works), shadow magic, "watchmaker", sniper. Or this could be recycled into "slayer" or "avenger", a stealth+divine class focused to terminate unholy enemies.

The warmage could be a class altought the battles usually lasted some hours, not all the day.
 

I feel that the wizard, fighter, and arcane gish all suffer the same problem, but the result is different for each due to their unique circumstances
That's only because the community will typically not agree on a focus of what the wizard is to say that their spells are specially different from other spellcasters and decide on what restriction they have.

Fantasy dungeon adventure RPGs that decide to split off of the D&D mold typically can do this because they don't have tradition to worry about and the various classes can get some spells or not spells that focus on what kind of class they are.

And the same thing goes for the fighter on the other direction.
 

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