D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Tony Vargas]

Maybe it depends on how you define a problem?

Certainly. Players 'breaking' the 6-8 encounter day with a 3rd-level ritual is only a problem if you are trying to enforce it, in the first place.

For me, a party that uses a hut to stop after 3 encounters just means they have 9-11 the next day.

and then they stop after 3 the next day, and it's 12-14. At some point, you'll have to charge them encounter interest.

 

[tetrasodium]

You do know that the Roman army built a fortified camp EVERY night it traveled right? Even smaller units built fortifications every night, and that's after a 20 Roman mile march. These fortifications included ditches and pike walls to provide cover from archers and break up cavalry charges. Fortified Camps | Tools of War | The Roman Military

Expecting hobgoblins to do essentially the same is not unreasonable. Expecting any organized unit not to carry trenching tools, axes, and rope is perhaps more absurd than expecting them to only be carrying weapons and water and a pouch with a few coins each.


Maybe it depends on how you define a problem?

I don't think Oofta ever said the hut does not present issues. It's just that (depending on how you define it) and issue is not a problem.

For me, a party that uses a hut to stop after 3 encounters just means they have 9-11 the next day.

Your comparing the roman army did nightly to what a wilderness patrol could do in a couple hours?... really?...

 

[Derren]

And to add to all the other points, even if you get close to the hut without being shot because of your makeshift supercover that you will likely only allow monsters to create or fireballed by a wizard stepping out of the hut and back in or summoning something on the other side of the hut what then? Except of course being impaled by spears from inside the hut?

But I guess if a small patrol can create siege level cover on the spot in a few hours they can bury the entire dome within minutes...

 

[Tony Vargas]

fireballed by a wizard stepping out of the hut and back in or summoning something on the other side of the hut what then?

That's a different wizard than the one that cast the Hut, because when he leaves it vanishes, and you can't summon creatures to outside the Hut, because that'd be a spell being cast through it, and you can't summon them inside and send them out, because they weren't inside it when it was cast, so can't pass through it.

Aside from that, nice ideas for making the problematic spell moreso.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's a different wizard than the one that cast the Hut, because when he leaves it vanishes, and you can't summon creatures to outside the Hut, because that'd be a spell being cast through it, and you can't summon them inside and send them out, because they weren't inside it when it was cast, so can't pass through it.

Aside from that, nice ideas for making the problematic spell moreso.

dso it's the warlock or scorlock who just got back that fireball or a good chunk of it & that squishy caster is standing up to an orc patrol with "I move 5-10 feet to leave the perfectly safe opaque bunker, cast fireball, & then move back into our improved forcecube fortress after casting it.. Alternately maybe the monk walks out & burns a bunch of ki points or whatever. The important fact is that the group can expend 100% of their resources without concern for this one encounter & then just safely take another rest.

 

[Tony Vargas]

dso it's the warlock or scorlock who just got back that fireball or a good chunk of it & that squishy caster is standing up to an orc patrol with "I move 5-10 feet to leave the perfectly safe opaque bunker, cast fireball, & then move back into our improved forcecube fortress after casting it..

That gets into problems with readying as well as problems with the spell, sure. But it does require two casters - the Hut, though only a ritual with negligible cost to cast, does put a meaningful restriction on the wizard that casts it.

The important fact is that the group can expend 100% of their resources without concern for this one encounter & then just safely take another rest.

That's what it comes back to, of course, 'breaking' the 6-8 encounter day.

 

[Oofta]

Okay, @tetrasodium I tried to go back and weed through your response and grab the salient points.

Nine creatures
"assume a party of nine."
Not really sure why the party doubles it's average size or why it matters. I base encounters on the number of players.


Paint
"...blatantly adversarial...find some paint, & throw it over the dome"

This was under "prepared counters". Yes, I'm assuming some defenders may well have things in stock to counter things like the tiny hut. This isn't the first time it's ever been cast, I assume people know about spells like this and it's uses.

Particularly applies if the PCs are a known enemy and have used a tactic like this in the past.

Time
"...could have my NPCs setup an ambust and mercilessly TPK my players every time..."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here other than ... well never mind. I have no clue.

My point was that there is often a time constraint. You have to rescue the princess, stop the ritual and so on. In addition resting will give the enemy time to summon reinforcements.

Actions have consequences. I will never spring a deadly trap on PCs, but the enemy will respond in a logical fashion. They aren't just static piles of numbers that can only act if their zone is activated.

Burrowing and incorporeal
"Yes burrowing & incorporeal creatures can freely enter from underneath the dome as you suggest... Crawford actually said "There's no floor""

Yep, I acknowledge there was a tweet which I didn't know about it when I originally posted. I also ignore most of the sage advice tweets. I don't even always follow the official published sage advice rulings all the time.

On a related note, unlike wall of force there's no indication that the hut stops travel through the ethereal plane.

Portable cover
"... gets into all of the problems I pointed out in revised paint plus the TPK problem & taunt strategy of your Time solution..."

Again, I don't know what your point is. You seem to continuously envision some type of giant siege tower made of carefully crafted foot thick oaken timbers. I'm envisioning something hastily thrown together with scrap wood or timber.

It only takes a few inches of wood to stop an arrow. In the scenario in my campaign where this happened it was out in the open, there were torches affixed to the "wall" and hobgoblins with long bows hiding beyond the range of darkvision. So if a mage (presumably not the one that cast the spell) stepped out they would have been peppered with arrows. There wasn't a second mage so it didn't come up.

Also: since we're talking tweets by Crawford, he also stated that it was never the intent that you could make a ranged attack from inside the hut. Which, based on the wording (you can move an object in or out) is logical.

Block off escape
"...wall of force is a 5th level spell with only a 10 minute duration...the party of nine PCs..."

Actually I was assuming reinforced doors, cave-ins, brick-and-mortar. Again, you suddenly have a 9 person party for inexplicable reasons. Not that it makes much difference how many PCs there are, it's just an odd thing to repeatedly point out.

Run away
"...absurd solution that amounts to early in a session the gm simply saying annnnd the bad guys leave..."


Actions, or inactions have consequences in my game. If the goblins run off with the McGuffin, the group will have to chase after them.

Reinforcements/Ambushes/Traps
"... just expanding on the "Time" & "Portable Cover" solutions"

Again, so? The enemy now knows there are invaders. Why would they not fortify against them? Have you never seen the "prepare for attack" montage in movies? The bad guys have up to 8 hours of prep.


Poison gas
"Cloud kill is a 5th level spell..."

Why assume a spell? This was also under prepared defenses, I'm assuming containers of poisonous gas or similar.


Cage
"...as many as nine pairs of eyes able to see out from the safety of their unbreakable wall of force..."

Who says anyone is building the cage on the spot? This is a world with teleportation magic, giants and dragons. Yeah, it's a little cheesy and very situational. Also only appropriate as a prepared defense.


Flood the Room
"...Tuckers Koolds again... Good Jorb."

Very dependent on location and opponent. Like I pointed out in the post.


Put something hazardous on top
"Nine pairs of eyes and a dome ..."

Something hazardous could be anything from dropping a green slime on top to wasp nests. They'd need some way to block line of sight (fog cloud, darkness, etc) or maybe some kind of way to throw the material, perhaps an invisibility spell or two.

In a lot of cases it would probably be followed up in short order with a dispel magic.

 

[Derren]

That gets into problems with readying as well as problems with the spell, sure. But it does require two casters - the Hut, though only a ritual with negligible cost to cast, does put a meaningful restriction on the wizard that casts it.

That's what it comes back to, of course, 'breaking' the 6-8 encounter day.

How many parties do not have 2 casters? It might not be a fireball but pretty much every primary caster will have some attack spells at that point.

And I do not know what is more silly here. The paint, which you need barrels full of to cover a significant amount and can be very easily be cleaned away or that you can easily make portable full cover with no body part sticking out an archer you cannot see can shoot.

 

[tetrasodium]

That gets into problems with readying as well as problems with the spell, sure. But it does require two casters - the Hut, though only a ritual with negligible cost to cast, does put a meaningful restriction on the wizard that casts it.

That's what it comes back to, of course, 'breaking' the 6-8 encounter day.

it gets into even more problems. I already pointed out how that half cover(being pretty generous there) counts for full cover, now those orcs are managing to get off readied actions to attack whatever emerges from the one way opaque force cube of mystery while still holding up this makeshift bundle of sticks. The bundle of sticks is getting to be so effective that one made with proper lumber & nails/screws/etc must make an MRAP look like a pillow fort....In fact, why not just make a bundle of sticks like the orc's did & use it to approach the orc fortress 10 feet at a time with tiny hut rituals till the gate is inside the hut ready to be whittled away with a dull spoon if need be.


@Oofta Many of those points might make sense if you were not pulling them out of context & looking at them as they apply to the solution. For example, you didn't understand the merciless tpk problem when addressing your "time" point.
This was the point
"I think this is the biggest factor which plays into the enemies hands and is addressed in more detail for several options. The enemy has up to 8 hours knowing exactly where the invaders are located. That's a lot of time to come up with countermeasures or to make plans. "

Your "why assume a spell" comment about the problems with your poison gas solution is dishonestly absurd selective quoting given that the full point was this
"Poison gas: Cloud kill is a 5th level spell (not a ritual one either) with a 10 minute duration, tiny hut is a third level ritually castable spell with an 8 hour duration. Are you suggesting that lethal poison gas is as common as the paintcan closet filled to the brim with paint cans & poison gas?... Also have you not considered how 8 of the nine party members could use this trivially available long lasting poison gasfrom the safety of their tiny hut where The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside." Creatures Objects & spells not inside the dome can't enter after it gets cast, but "we leave the canisters of cheap & common VX gas outside the dome before he casts it" easily solves any of the problems that would hinder the party from using it. "

You literally could not be bothered to finish reading the problems before your ego got the better of you & you dismissed it entirely. Discussion requires doing more than dismissing people who disagree & declaring them a bad gm before you even finish reading what they are saying,

 

[Oofta]

How many parties do not have 2 casters? It might not be a fireball but pretty much every primary caster will have some attack spells at that point.

Getting PCs to leave the safety of the hut is kind of the point. In the group I'm currently running we have only 1 wizard with AOE spells. There's a cleric too, but most of his spells require line of sight.