D&D 5E (2014) Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Derren]

Tiny Hut is a lot more powerful than spells at the same level and if used creatively certainly problematic. Just because most groups don't (or comply when the DM threatens them not to) doesn't change that.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

No.

The video didn't make it clear what the "cook and book" was meaning for me either. I could see the "cook" part was heating the knight's armour, but book left me puzzled as well... Looking for the term in m-w, I discovered this meaning for the verb book: "
3 slang : leave, go especially : to depart quickly We booked out of there.
"

So apparently, it must refer to the tactic consisting of casting Heat Metal and running away for 10 rounds to be out of range and thus not have your concentration threatened for 10 rounds and a total of 20d8 no-save damage for a level-2 spell.

 

[jasper]

.......

As far as the, "You can't do that at an AL table!" argument to altering spells:

First of all, I don't care. AL is not the tail wagging the D&D dog. If some spell or feature in D&D is crap in AL, that's AL's problem to solve, not D&D's. That's why the AL FAQ exists, which directly modifies several spells. That's also why the rewards rules are so strict and alter so many magic items when moving to different adventures. AL has to handle it's own messes.

Second of all, the only thing an AL DM can't do is implement new rules. You're explicitly told in the ALDMG to adjust or improvise not just encounters, but the adventure itself as long as you stick to it's spirit.

To support bacon bits.
As an AL DM with 200+ sessions, here are some of suggestions from various modules to balance an encounter. Aka nerf tiny hut etc.
1. Shorten the ritual time. I had a group run 04-14 (Finale of season 4) They took two short rest. I shorted the ritual to 6 rounds instead 10.
2. Dms are empower to adjust the encounter. So if they did the hut, bump the encounter from normal to strong or very strong.

AL has not mess resting type spells. Playing in multiple hardbacks and running multiple seasons, resting in the dungeon is not a major problem. Either the encounter is static which does not go off till you open the door, or the encounter is a speed bump which does not matter if you at 5 or 55 hp.

 

[Derren]

That only works if Tiny Hut is only used for resting.
The more efficient use for it is for blocking hallways, creating safe zones or if you manage to cast it in a good spot forward bunker for your archers to attack from without fear of reprisal.

 

[Oofta]

That only works if Tiny Hut is only used for resting.
The more efficient use for it is for blocking hallways, creating safe zones or if you manage to cast it in a good spot forward bunker for your archers to attack from without fear of reprisal.

I've never seen the spell used in this fashion and I have a hard time envisioning how it would work. If the party has a protected spot, why would enemies attack knowing they can't harm the PCs? Generally speaking most adventures revolve around stopping the BBEG from doing something, retrieving a McGuffin and so on. They aren't doing any of that if they aren't moving.

Why would the enemy not just hang back, summon reinforcements and wait them out while making preparations?

Can you describe a scenario where this happened? Because it sounds like a common tactic in your game. One that simply wouldn't work in a game I was running unless the party is facing zombies/skeletons or other unintelligent monsters that follow orders without question.

 

[Derren]

If it is used and effective depends on both the players and the DM.
Generally newer players who have been lulled in by the Combat as Sports philosophy don't recognize the power of the hut and only use it for its advertised function.

But the people who recognize it sometimes start spamming it, its free after all, which is especially effective when the DM runs a dynamic dungeon instead of having the monsters wait in their rooms for the PCs to arrive to slaughter them.
Come to a crossroad? Create a hut and depending on the architecture you have split the enemies forces in half. A suspicious sarcophagus? Create a hut and the open it. A trap? Create a hut before attempting to disable it.
In some cases the PCs might even succeed in creating a hut right before the room of the BBEG although that likely requires some setup and the real spell instead of a ritual and now have a bunker to retreat to and depending on the layout force the enemy to abandon his position unless he wants to be shot at from inside the hut.

The hut is also very useful for Helms Deep type scenarios. Orks break down the door? Cast a hut right behind the door. Not only did the orcs achieve nothing, you can now freely attack the orcs unless they have dispell magic forcing them to retreat and letting you repair the door.
And especially in such scenarios where you have a long time to prepare you can set up multiple huts to make dispelling them less effective. I still have an open argument about if you can create a hut inside a hut to have multiple layers.

Edit: It is also good for misdirection. While the enemy "hangs back to make preoarations" the PCs have left the bubble on the other side and prepare to attack something else. Or they use it to bait the enemy to use up their summons and buffs and then wait them out in the hut.

The point is to not see the hut as a resting spell, but as a free 8 hours long selective Wall of Force.

 

[Asisreo]

The 10 minute casting time is not insignificant. 10 minutes is a very long time in a dungeon and it seems people are forgetting their sense of time when arguing about Tiny Hut. Nobody has even tried responding to the fact that roaming enemies will easily interrupt the caster which I find odd since there must be an answer for everything.

 

[Derren]

The 10 minute casting time is not insignificant. 10 minutes is a very long time in a dungeon and it seems people are forgetting their sense of time when arguing about Tiny Hut. Nobody has even tried responding to the fact that roaming enemies will easily interrupt the caster which I find odd since there must be an answer for everything.

Even when you get interrupted, you lost nothing as the ritual hut is free.

10 Minutes is also not that long. 1/6 of a short rest.

 

[Oofta]

If it is used and effective depends on both the players and the DM.
Generally newer players who have been lulled in by the Combat as Sports philosophy don't recognize the power of the hut and only use it for its advertised function.

But the people who recognize it sometimes start spamming it, its free after all, which is especially effective when the DM runs a dynamic dungeon instead of having the monsters wait in their rooms for the PCs to arrive to slaughter them.

I agree with monsters not being static piles of stats waiting to be slaughtered.

Come to a crossroad? Create a hut and depending on the architecture you have split the enemies forces in half.

Not sure what kind of campaign you run, I admit I don't use old school dungeons so this would never happen in my game. There will almost always be a back door or way to get around a single choke point.

But I always found the "traditional" dungeon kind of silly unless it's something carved out of a natural formation. Why would anyone dig out tons of rocks just to create hallways?

In my games, the enemy would either use an alternate route or make one by knocking down a wall or two.

A suspicious sarcophagus? Create a hut and the open it. A trap? Create a hut before attempting to disable it.

Or have the trickster rogue disarm the trap with mage hand or the party hides around the corner. I don't see why this is an issue. If the undead creature released from the sarcophagus is at all intelligent they'll just go behind cover or leave.

In some cases the PCs might even succeed in creating a hut right before the room of the BBEG although that likely requires some setup and the real spell instead of a ritual and now have a bunker to retreat to and depending on the layout force the enemy to abandon his position unless he wants to be shot at from inside the hut.

It takes 10 minutes to cast. What's the BBEG doing while they're casting? Most fights are over in a minute or two at most. What's stopping them from just retreating behind cover and waiting out the PCs?

The hut is also very useful for Helms Deep type scenarios. Orks break down the door? Cast a hut right behind the door. Not only did the orcs achieve nothing, you can now freely attack the orcs unless they have dispell magic forcing them to retreat and letting you repair the door.
And especially in such scenarios where you have a long time to prepare you can set up multiple huts to make dispelling them less effective. I still have an open argument about if you can create a hut inside a hut to have multiple layers.

I think the Helm's Deep scenario is legitimate only because of how movies depict sieges. Most castles were traditionally pretty impenetrable without siege engines. But showing how the enemy army camps outside the keep for months at a time in order to starve out people is boring. If somehow the PCs have a hut 24X7 and access to create food/water then the enemy would bring in the trebuchets and bury the hut. Might take a few days, but most sieges lasted for months.

But think about that scenario. They weren't facing a few dozen orcs, they were facing hundreds if not thousands of orcs with a handful of defenders. Orcs that were willing to throw their lives away. In that scenario in my campaign the hut would have just been covered in bodies after a bit (or use a different tactic).

If an army is invading, there are many, many options to counter the hut that I covered in my first post.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The video didn't make it clear what the "cook and book" was meaning for me either. I could see the "cook" part was heating the knight's armour, but book left me puzzled as well... Looking for the term in m-w, I discovered this meaning for the verb book: "
3 slang : leave, go especially : to depart quickly We booked out of there.
"

So apparently, it must refer to the tactic consisting of casting Heat Metal and running away for 10 rounds to be out of range and thus not have your concentration threatened for 10 rounds and a total of 20d8 no-save damage for a level-2 spell.

So, a white room problem that is easily fixed without changing the spell. Okay.

And honestly I just wasn’t gonna watch a video to figure out what someone is referencing, so thank you.