D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Oofta]

And you again fail to point out what getting close with the cover would actually accomplish. By now its obvious that you have no idea yourself.
You have only given the PCs another tool to use by ruling you can craft mobile cover which is effective against ranged attacks and spells for free. The next dungeon will be fun when the PCs use such a tree shield to freely move around.
And you are completely ignoring the vision issue.

But the highlight is that now people are carring around gallons of paint in throwable containers for the random chance to encounter a tiny hut. Not that they would be of any use as the paint is easily scraped off because of the hut. If paint would even stick to a wall of force which as the name says consist out of force and not matter. Thats like trying to paint a magnetic field or the sound barrier.



He actually never said that. He only admitted that they screwed up when writing the spell but never said that it should be changed.

What makes a shield wall impossible other than you saying it is? They are something that existed in the real world, but D&D doesn't model military unit tactics. So I improvised. It's a very situational tactic, if there were a similar situation for the PCs they would be free to use it.

As far as what the hobgoblins were going to do, they never got that far. Plan was to block line of sight for one direction then start digging. Well, bring in the half dragon half giant lizard mount* and have it dig. Once there was a hole, breath fire.

Unless of course the PCs swarmed out to counter attack, which they did.

The gallons of paint could have been used back at the castle. More likely a few gallons of some type of sticky flammable substance that would block line of sight and cover people when they left the hut or the spell expired. Have some guards at the ready with some sort of fire based attack to take advantage that the PCs are covered in pitch.

*No I didn't mention the half-dragon half-giant lizard mount before. There's a great deal about the scenario that wasn't particularly important. Half dragons were a big part of this arc of the campaign.

 

[Derren]

What makes a shield wall impossible other than you saying it is? They are something that existed in the real world, but D&D doesn't model military unit tactics. So I improvised. It's a very situational tactic, if there were a similar situation for the PCs they would be free to use it.

As far as what the hobgoblins were going to do, they never got that far. Plan was to block line of sight for one direction then start digging. Well, bring in the half dragon half giant lizard mount* and have it dig. Once there was a hole, breath fire.

Unless of course the PCs swarmed out to counter attack, which they did.

The gallons of paint could have been used back at the castle. More likely a few gallons of some type of sticky flammable substance that would block line of sight and cover people when they left the hut or the spell expired. Have some guards at the ready with some sort of fire based attack to take advantage that the PCs are covered in pitch.

*No I didn't mention the half-dragon half-giant lizard mount before. There's a great deal about the scenario that wasn't particularly important. Half dragons were a big part of this arc of the campaign.

And again you ignore every of the many flaws in your plan.

You ignore that even in the unlikely event that someone has barrels of pitch with them it can be easily scraped of by those inside (if it sticks in the first place) faster than it can be applied. You achieved nothing. Getting close to the hut means you are now in the range of alchemist fire which can either be thrown over the supercover into the clustered hobgoblins or at it to set it on fire, exposing the ones behind it if they run or have to drop it. Again, nothing achieved.
And even if you burried into the hut you are now in a very disadvantageous position as you have to crawl one by one into the hut while getting stabbed by 1 to 9 people.
Before proclaiming that you have a counter to tiny hut you should first actually think a out what a counter should accomplish as yours don't do anything.

And about your supercover, the ones that existed in real life were either not so super as you make them or took a lot more time to make.

 

[Oofta]

And again you ignore every of the many flaws in your plan.

You ignore that even in the unlikely event that someone has barrels of pitch with them it can be easily scraped of by those inside (if it sticks in the first place) faster than it can be applied. You achieved nothing. Getting close to the hut means you are now in the range of alchemist fire which can either be thrown over the supercover into the clustered hobgoblins or at it to set it on fire, exposing the ones behind it if they run or have to drop it. Again, nothing achieved.
And even if you burried into the hut you are now in a very disadvantageous position as you have to crawl one by one into the hut while getting stabbed by 1 to 9 people.
Before proclaiming that you have a counter to tiny hut you should first actually think a out what a counter should accomplish as yours don't do anything.

And about your supercover, the ones that existed in real life were either not so super as you make them or took a lot more time to make.

I have a pretty good idea how long it would take to chop up some wood and bind it together to construct a crude single use wall. I have experience building something similar as I've stated multiple times. It doesn't need to be an engineering marvel. As far as setting it on fire, it takes several minutes to burn through wood. Is water allowed in the campaign? I've heard it does wonders countering that flame thing. That's assuming the party had alchemist fire; my PCs occasionally buy the stuff because trolls but I don't remember any of my player's PCs ever doing so. By the time you can afford it, it's not particularly useful.

The patrol did not have pitch with them. That is a pre-planned counter to spells like tiny hut kept at a base. Also useful for boiling and dropping on invaders trying to climb the wall. It's also something I've stated many times and included in the original post.

Who's crawling into the hut? If the hobgoblins hadn't had a fire breathing mount with them there would have been some other tactic. Maybe smoke them out or find some wasp nests or cast a spell or any number of other things. The counters are going to be situational depending on the enemy and the resources available.

In any case when you DM feel free to run it differently.

 

[Derren]

I have a pretty good idea how long it would take to chop up some wood and bind it together to construct a crude single use wall. I have experience building something similar as I've stated multiple times. It doesn't need to be an engineering marvel. As far as setting it on fire, it takes several minutes to burn through wood. Is water allowed in the campaign? I've heard it does wonders countering that flame thing. That's assuming the party had alchemist fire; my PCs occasionally buy the stuff because trolls but I don't remember any of my player's PCs ever doing so. By the time you can afford it, it's not particularly useful.

The patrol did not have pitch with them. That is a pre-planned counter to spells like tiny hut kept at a base. Also useful for boiling and dropping on invaders trying to climb the wall. It's also something I've stated many times and included in the original post.

Who's crawling into the hut? If the hobgoblins hadn't had a fire breathing mount with them there would have been some other tactic. Maybe smoke them out or find some wasp nests or cast a spell or any number of other things. The counters are going to be situational depending on the enemy and the resources available.

In any case when you DM feel free to run it differently.

A good thing that you can put out a fire from the other side of the supercover without exposing yourself to archers...
Smoking them out wouldn't work as the atmosphere inside the dome is always comfortable so no smoke, heat, gas, wasps, etc.

It would really, really help if you would propose tactics that actually work instead of suggesting random things and hoping that no one will think to hard about it.

 

[Asisreo]

A good thing that you can put out a fire from the other side of the supercover without exposing yourself to archers...
Smoking them out wouldn't work as the atmosphere inside the dome is always comfortable so no smoke, heat, gas, wasps, etc.

It would really, really help if you would propose tactics that actually work instead of suggesting random things and hoping that no one will think to hard about it.

I don't understand how there's this argument that you have to have a working idea, but every working idea means the DM manipulated things to favor him. If the cover/fire/smoke doesn't work, let it not work and the players come out on top. We aren't trying to TPK the players.

 

[Oofta]

A good thing that you can put out a fire from the other side of the supercover without exposing yourself to archers...
Smoking them out wouldn't work as the atmosphere inside the dome is always comfortable so no smoke, heat, gas, wasps, etc.

It would really, really help if you would propose tactics that actually work instead of suggesting random things and hoping that no one will think to hard about it.

It's difficult to start wood on fire under most circumstances, it takes minutes of sustained heat to burn through wood of any significance. A bucket of water would put out most fires unless the barricade is made of dry straw. I would rule that the smoke would work because of how it's being purposely forced in through a gap created after the spell went into effect; it's not based on the weather or atmosphere outside the tent. Feel free to rule differently, obviously this doesn't work if your hut has a "floor". If I wanted to be really cheesy I'd just shove a bag of 10 rats through the hole and trigger the "The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. "

If I had wanted to screw over the party I would not have attacked immediately. They had a full garrison a couple of hours away, they could have sent for reinforcements and attacked with a hundred troops once the spell expired. If the spell expired before they got there, they would have just tracked them. Attacking using unconventional tactics was the best option for the PCs.

Basically what it comes down to is that in your game you've decided it's an overly powerful spell that cannot be countered in any way. I think that's your issue, I don't think it's a a problem with the RAW or RAI.

In the future I'm probably going to run it following the RAI - that you can move things in and out of the dome but can't attack from within. So as you go one way or another you have to "push" against the wall until suddenly you're "pulled" out and ejected. Momentum from arrows or other ranged attacks is lost. Still follows the letter of the rules, provides a safe shelter while keeping out dangerous animals

 

[Oofta]

I don't understand how there's this argument that you have to have a working idea, but every working idea means the DM manipulated things to favor him. If the cover/fire/smoke doesn't work, let it not work and the players come out on top. We aren't trying to TPK the players.

If I wanted to TPK the players they wouldn't have known there were any hobgoblins in the area until a full unit of 100 marched over the hill.

 

[LordEntrails]

@LordEntrails regarding barrels of paint and how many sqdt you can cover with a gallon using a paint brush, oofta admitted that he was thinking of just throwing the paint at the dome earlier. Paint covers quite a bit less space when you apply it like that

Paint coverage is more dependint upon the porousity of the surface it is covering than how it is applied (though certainly splashed or thrown paint is not going to cover things efficiently).

If paint would even stick to a wall of force which as the name says consist out of force and not matter. Thats like trying to paint a magnetic field or the sound barrier.

This would be more of my concern. Just how slick is a wall of force? I don't envision is as zero friction, but it's probably pretty slick. So yes, to me the paint would run off after a round or three. BUT that's ok! That's dynamic, dynamic is fun

He actually never said that. He only admitted that they screwed up when writing the spell but never said that it should be changed.

Several times in this thread he has been quoted as saying that you can't shoot things out of the hut. That's what I'm referring to, nothing else.

Getting close to the hut means you are now in the range of alchemist fire which can either be thrown over the supercover into the clustered hobgoblins or at it to set it on fire, exposing the ones behind it if they run or have to drop it. Again, nothing achieved.

Nothing achieved except a dynamic situation. And a player expenditure of resources. You tend to think that if an idea isn't full-proof and results in a TPK that it doesn't work.

Again, RPGs, imo, are not about winning or losing. They are about fun. And one way to have fun is to present challenges that have to be overcome. And dynamic challenges, and things that can be countered and those counters themselves countered is dynamic. I will repeat, "dynamic is fun".

A good thing that you can put out a fire from the other side of the supercover without exposing yourself to archers...

Awesome! A counter to a counter and one that has risk!

So, the hobgoblins approach with a makeshift wooden barrier.
The players counter by stepping out of the hut, throwing on alchemists fire and stepping back in.
The hobgoblins counter by throwing a bucket of water on it and having an archer ready for the next time the party steps out to throw more fire.
The party counters by two players stepping out, one to throw more fire and the second to shoot at the archer, or to hold a shield to protect their friend.

See how much fun you could turn this encounter into? And that's just starting

It would really, really help if you would propose tactics that actually work instead of suggesting random things and hoping that no one will think to hard about it.

Let's not get someone else banned from the thread.

Instead, how about saying something like; 'I still don't think the makeshift cover would work like you say. Here's how I would rule it...'

If the cover/fire/smoke doesn't work, let it not work and the players come out on top. We aren't trying to TPK the players

Yea! Someone who gets it

 

[Tony Vargas]

Y'know, it's funny: 5e has done a remarkable job of evoking the classic game.
In this case, even having radically changed a classic spell, it still takes me back...
...because teenage me had so many discussions like these, back in the day...

...I mean, paint coverage, that's the kind of thing you need to know to run a fantasy scenario...

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Leomund's Big Disagreement
9th-level illusion (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 minute, or the time required to submit an OP, whichever is longer
Range: One ENWorld thread
Components: V, S, M (the text of Leomund's Tiny Hut and a handful of designers' tweets)
Duration: ???