D&D 5E Counterspell check ?

[Gecko85]

He is wrong.

Christopher Perkins is wrong? Possible...

 

[Paraxis]

On the wizards turn.
1. Wizard casts spell. (His Action)
2. Sorcerer casts counterspell using his reaction.
3. Wizard casts counterspell using his reaction.

Reactions can be used on your turn.
The limit of a cantrip and bonus action spell don't apply because that is not what we are talking about no one is using a bonus action in the above scenario.

Under Casting Time on pg 202.

REACTIONS
Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.

The spell doesn't limit when you can cast it, the wizard has a reaction, counterspell is a spell he can see being cast, so the wizard should be able to counterspell the counterspell.

 

[keterys]

Perkins is used to a previous version of the rules in which you could not take reactions on your own turn.

 

[Gecko85]

But the Wizard has already cast a spell (on his turn), so could not have readied Counterspell as a reaction.

A spell must have a casting time of 1 action to be readied, and holding onto the spell’s magic until you release it with your reaction requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, you might lose the spell as a result of your concentration being broken.

 

[DaveDash]

You are not readying a spell when you cast counterspell.

 

[Gecko85]

You are not readying a spell when you cast counterspell.

Ah, I see...Counterspell is a reaction.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Some thoughts:

1) Counterspell specifically says that it interrupts the spellcasting process;

2) Reactions, unlike Readied Actions, do not state that they come after their trigger;

3) Counterspell has a Somatic component, so it could be argued that the original spellcaster would need two free hands if the original spell also had a Somatic component (one for the original spell, one for the counterspell to counter the counterspell...)

I would not rule it that way - Just playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[Dausuul]

2) WHY NOT ???

You can, in fact, counterspell an enemy counterspell. (Unlike 4E, 5E allows you to take reactions on your own turn.) The only down side is that doing so expends your reaction. So you force your own spell through, but at the cost of leaving yourself open to whatever the enemy mage does on her turn. It's still a winning tactic, though. When two glass cannons start blasting at each other, whoever gets in the first shot is likely to get in the last one, too.

Two dueling wizards with counterspell can burn through spell slots at a ferocious rate. If you think you have more spell slots than your opponent, you want to counterspell every chance you get, waging a war of attrition. If you're on the receiving end of this tactic, you still have to respond in kind because you can't afford to be letting enemy spells through while your own are blocked.

 

[Ruzak]

If I cast fireball and then move, provoking an opportunity attack, can I cast shield? How is this any different?

 

[DaveDash]

You can, in fact, counterspell an enemy counterspell. (Unlike 4E, 5E allows you to take reactions on your own turn.) The only down side is that doing so expends your reaction. So you force your own spell through, but at the cost of leaving yourself open to whatever the enemy mage does on her turn. It's still a winning tactic, though. When two glass cannons start blasting at each other, whoever gets in the first shot is likely to get in the last one, too.

Two dueling wizards with counterspell can burn through spell slots at a ferocious rate. If you think you have more spell slots than your opponent, you want to counterspell every chance you get, waging a war of attrition. If you're on the receiving end of this tactic, you still have to respond in kind because you can't afford to be letting enemy spells through while your own are blocked.

It also pays off when you counterspell a 9th level spell with a 3rd level spell. Given the Abjurer in my party is now roughly +10 on his counter spell check, this is a viable tactic.

Having said that, the enemy Wizard can also just counter spell you back.

And then your Lore Bard counter spells him....

Welcome to my game.

 

[guachi]

I'll add to those disagreeing with Chris Perkins. Counterspell is a reaction. I see nothing in the rules that says you can't cast one if you also cast a spell as long as you still have your reaction available. Counterspell is somatic only so you'll need a free hand. If your original spell has no somatic components, you need one free hand. If it did have somatic components you'll need two hands - one for the original spell and one for counterspell.

The somatic component is, of course, flipping the bird. "The enemy wizard casts fireball" "HA! I counterspell him" "He flips you the bird. Roll a Dex save."

 

[Jack99]

Sorry, but it makes no sense for counterspell to work.

A reaction interrupts the other action - so in order for someone to be counterspelled, he must already be casting a spell, right? So tell me, how is he going to counter the counterspell? He is already casting one... Can't really cast two different spells at the same time..

Cheers

 

[keterys]

Can't really cast two different spells at the same time..

Because...? It certainly could be the case that there should be a rule to stop you from doing so, but there's no real difference between casting a spell, then using Shield to avoid an opportunity attack as you move, all on the same turn, and casting a spell and countering someone else's attempt to counter you at the same time.

The closest you can get is based on component restrictions. So make sure you have two free hands.

Reminds me of a cool casting game I used to play some years ago, where you carefully managed spell gestures in two hands at once in order to perform a variety of spells.

 

[PnPgamer]

So thiw boils down to the fact that bonus action is the one restricting multiple castings.
action + bonus is possible if action is a cantrip
Action + reaction is possible, no restrictions
Bonus action + reaction is not possible, as bonus restricts and not a single cantrip is a reaction.
Is this correct?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

A reaction interrupts the other action - so in order for someone to be counterspelled, he must already be casting a spell, right? So tell me, how is he going to counter the counterspell? He is already casting one... Can't really cast two different spells at the same time..

I think the reaction technically happens after the spell is cast.

If the enemy was in the middle of waving her arms around and chanting bad Latin, but you interrupt it by making one very quick gesture with just one phrase of bad Latin, then it wouldn't make sense for the enemy to counter-counter while trying to continue with the elaborate movements for the original spell.

If the enemy says a word or two and makes a quick gesture so the spell completes and flies toward its target, but you interrupt the spell by blasting it out of the sky with your own spell, then it makes perfect sense that she could counter-counter by shooting down your Counterspell.

 

[keterys]

So thiw boils down to the fact that bonus action is the one restricting multiple castings.
action + bonus is possible if action is a cantrip
Action + reaction is possible, no restrictions
Bonus action + reaction is not possible, as bonus restricts and not a single cantrip is a reaction.
Is this correct?

Yep, those are the restrictions for casting _on your turn_. But if there was a reaction cantrip, you'd be good to use both it and a bonus action.

Note that you can use any type of reaction spell when it's not your turn, even if you use a bonus action and cantrip on your turn. So you can do 3 spells a round no problem.

 

[Jack99]

I think the reaction technically happens after the spell is cast.

If the enemy was in the middle of waving her arms around and chanting bad Latin, but you interrupt it by making one very quick gesture with just one phrase of bad Latin, then it wouldn't make sense for the enemy to counter-counter while trying to continue with the elaborate movements for the original spell.

If the enemy says a word or two and makes a quick gesture so the spell completes and flies toward its target, but you interrupt the spell by blasting it out of the sky with your own spell, then it makes perfect sense that she could counter-counter by shooting down your Counterspell.

Makes sense if you look at it that way. Except that as far as I understand the rules in the PHB, the readied action take place after whatever action triggered it, while other reactions (usually) interrupt the action. In which case it would be difficult to cast the spell at the same time as you are already casting another spell..

 

[Dausuul]

Sorry, but it makes no sense for counterspell to work.

A reaction interrupts the other action - so in order for someone to be counterspelled, he must already be casting a spell, right? So tell me, how is he going to counter the counterspell? He is already casting one... Can't really cast two different spells at the same time..

Cheers

I would say that reaction spells are designed to be castable in the middle of doing something else, even casting a second spell. It's a single gesture or word. With practice, you can work it in so that it doesn't interrupt another spell's casting.

 

[Jack99]

I would say that reaction spells are designed to be castable in the middle of doing something else, even casting a second spell. It's a single gesture or word. With practice, you can work it in so that it doesn't interrupt another spell's casting.

I guess it's possible. Guess I will just have to try and see what the table says and go from there.

Cheers

 

[miniaturehoarder]

I think I'd rule with what Perkins thinks is an explicit rule, you don't get to cast 2 spells at once, so no countering a while you are casting the spell getting countered. It will keep folks from burning spell stacks too fast, which benefits the game overall.