D&D 5E Counterspell what do people think?

[Garthanos]

I think its targeting a flavor of duelling mages and allows casters to defend allies in uniquely casterish way which is all very cool. I wish it existed in some earlier editions where it didnt some ways.

What I am gathering out of this thread so far.

I think it looks like a lot of classes and subclasses already have access to it which is like the original magic ability of the Wizard/Sorcerer/seer etc from Chainmail.

You could end up with more characters having it on their known spells in a way that might be a lower choice cost, if its functionality were collapsed into dispel magic for instance if the same ability could be cast in a reaction to stop a spell as it was cast or as a full action against an ongoing effect (at double the range).

I think having a snapback like I suggested is not necessary in terms of power particularly, I don't mind the power so much when a level 3 spell might stop a much higher level spell it might however make the caster feel better for the case where the caster over invested which I still like.

I like the idea of making it an opposed roll because it would feel more dynamic.
I also like having the casters of the counterspell and the original spell up the anti-by advancing more slots to oppose the countering but this might make it too complicated.

I thought I read someone suggested counter spell causing the target spell to go off centered somewhere other than the target the original caster intended. I cannot find who suggested that. It looks like a very intriguing vivid result too.

 

[Garthanos]

It sounds like the main problem isn't the spell, but the kind of complicated simplification of rolling every-off-turn-everything and some on-turn stuff, all into the harried Reaction.

Hmm what if number of possible reactions advanced by tier or something... kind of like all the multi attacking.

 

[Garthanos]

sock puppet filter activated

 

[Maxperson]

When things come from a long standing edition warring place, it's hard to approach them.

I mean, not playing, DMing, or even actually taking the time to read and understand something, before the bashing, is just terrible.

I don't recall seeing any edition warring going on here.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't recall seeing any edition warring going on here.

I am a fan of 4e anything I do is auto-magically....

 

[Stalker0]

The best advice I can offer on counterspell, before banning it, really focus on the range restriction. It comes up more often than you think...for example I would have enemy mages move back just to get enough distance from the party mage to cast without getting counterspelled.

Now that may not be enough for some people, it is still an incredibly power effect, and I do not blame dms who just don’t want to deal with it. But I would at least give this a try before coming to your final conclusion, as it does weaken the spell.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't recall seeing any edition warring going on here.

I agree. You've got known supporters and advocates of at least three different editions (1e-4e-5e) - maybe four if anyone here's a 3e supporter - all discussing ways and means of dealing with a particular spell as applied to 5e.

Seems uncommonly unified, from where I sit.

 

[Gadget]

I think it was indeed a function of Dispel magic in games after Chainmail.

I think its targeting a flavor of duelling mages... not a problem.

I also think its letting a mage defend their allies in a uniquely wizardly way.


It does make it a gambling game.

Fair enough. I get the dueling mages motif. Yet some games seem to say it creates a problem.

I would also say that casting a Wall of Force, Protection from Evil and Good, Protection from Energy, Fog Cloud, Scatter, feather fall or any of dozens of other spells in a thoughtful and clever way is amble opportunity for a mage to defend their allies in a 'uniquely wizardly way.' Moreover, it allows for things to play out in more exciting and imaginative way. Think of a Dumbledore vs Voldemort duel where all that happened is two old men staring at each other and making a few quick gestures every now and again with nothing happening versus the duel we got. Much more exciting.

I realize that you can't always have the right spell or opportunity to protect your party available, but the game does provide the means to reverse most such set backs inflicted, even death.

 

[Garthanos]

Fair enough. I get the dueling mages motif. Yet some games seem to say it creates a problem.

Some definitely seem to have issues with it. That cannot be denied.

I would also say that casting a Wall of Force, Protection from Evil and Good, Protection from Energy, Fog Cloud, Scatter, feather fall or any of dozens of other spells in a thoughtful and clever way is amble opportunity for a mage to defend their allies in a 'uniquely wizardly way.' Moreover, it allows for things to play out in more exciting and imaginative way.

some of that is really really situational but you did notice that ...

Think of a Dumbledore vs Voldemort duel where all that happened is two old men staring at each other and making a few quick gestures every now and again with nothing happening versus the duel we got. Much more exciting.

Yeah some of the improvements being presented are intended to change that where an overwhelmed spell might be turned back on its caster in some fashion. (centered on him or simply someplace inconvenient ... or damage of a type associated with it delivered back)

I am a bit ginky with the idea of it stopping a significantly higher level slot (what are the odds anyone good with math?)

 

[WaterRabbit]

@WaterRabbit



Your assumptions are your own, yes.

There are 4 classes that can cast counterpell. Wizards, warlocks, sorcerers and bards. A full 1/3 of all classes. It's not at all rare to have two of those in a group.

So, here is how I know that you are engaged in either a white room discussion or you have a very uncommon encounter design environment -- either way these are edge cases.

So, while bards can cast counterspell, it is not on their list of allowed spells. So they have to acquire it through Magical Secrets (10th level, 14th level, 18th level) or Lore Bard through Additional Magical Secrets (more likely). However, for a Bard to choose this spell, opportunities to cast this must be very common or they wouldn't bother (this is even more true for a Sorcerer/Warlock) as the are still limited in the total number of spells they can know. As counterspell is very situational, the encounter design for your game makes this a worthwhile spell to take. It also assumes that the NPC spellcasters aren't smart enough to know how to keep from being counterspelled.

Wizards and Oath of Redemption Paladins (at 9th level) are much more likely to have this spell on hand.

So again, either your campaign is out at the margins of play, or you are just theorycrafting to nerf as spell that already has an opportunity cost and is trivially countered by opponents that know they can be countered.

For example, at the levels you are talking about for counterspelling to really be a thing for all of the different classes you are carrying in your theoretical party, Greater Invisibility (while a concentration spell) completely shuts down Counterspell. So your theoretical party now has to have cast See Invisibility within the last hour or spend an action during combat to cast it so they can then Counterspell.

A cantrip Minor Illusion can accomplish the same thing for a time -- create an illusionary wall for example. The caster knows it is an illusion and therefore can see through it. Otherwise, it requires an action or physical examination to gain the same benefit.

All it takes is to prevent your opponent from seeing you while you can still see them and counterspell become worthless. So unless all of your encounters take place in an arena without cover, it is literally trivial to prevent counterspell.

It seems to me that there is a lack of imagination going on in your games if counterspell is such a problem. Especially since the ways to counter it should be methods casters take anyway since archers are way more dangerous to casters than counterspell.