COUNTERSPELLING: Dispel Magic Qustion

[Aluvial]

Under the description for Dispel Magic and for Counterspells, it says that an effect caused by an instantaneous spell cannot be dispelled. I think I understand that.

But... can you counterspell, with a Dispel Magic, a spell with an instantaneous effect as it is being cast?

I thought so, but then again, I might be wrong.

According to the SRD

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

It is this line that is screwing me up. Does this mean, even if you have readied a counterspell Dispel Magic, you cannot dispel a spell that has an instantaneous duration?

Aluvial

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is this line that is screwing me up. Does this mean, even if you have readied a counterspell Dispel Magic, you cannot dispel a spell that has an instantaneous duration?

Yes it does, but it doesn't mean that you can't use Dispel Magic to counter a spell that has an instantaneous duration.

Dispel Magic has three applications: Targeted Dispel, Area Dispel, and Counterspell. You can't Dispel an instantaneous spell. You can Counterspell an instantaneous spell. Only two of the three applications of Dispel Magic involve any actual Dispelling.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Dispel Magic has three applications: Targeted Dispel, Area Dispel, and Counterspell. You can't Dispel an instantaneous spell. You can Counterspell an instantaneous spell. Only two of the three applications of Dispel Magic involve any actual Dispelling.

So, what does the third involve? It's not a true counterspell and requires a "dispel check":

dispel check
A roll of 1d20 + caster level of the character making the attempt to dispel (usually used with dispel magic). The DC is 11 plus the level of the spellcaster who initiated the effect being dispelled.

How does "effect being dispelled" not involve any actual Dispelling?

 

[Hypersmurf]

How does "effect being dispelled" not involve any actual Dispelling?

The spell text draws a distinction between dispelling and countering; for example:
Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

The Glossary definition is correct but incomplete; compare the glossary definition of 'bonus' (a positive modifier to a die roll) with the existence of bonuses which do not modify a die roll - inherent bonus to an ability score, dodge bonus to Armor Class, enhancement bonus to speed...

A more complete definition in the Glossary would use phrasing along the lines of "attempt to dispel (or counter)" and "effect being dispelled (or countered)", given that a dispel check is used for more than just dispelling.

Alternatively, you'll have to allow that you can use Dispel Magic in counterspell mode to prevent a (non-instantaneous) SLA from taking effect, since Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) an SLA, and you're defining Dispel Magic in counterspell mode as dispelling...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The Glossary definition is correct but incomplete;

Are you saying the rules are wrong?

Alternatively, you'll have to allow that you can use Dispel Magic in counterspell mode to prevent a (non-instantaneous) SLA from taking effect, since Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) an SLA, and you're defining Dispel Magic in counterspell mode as dispelling...

What do you allow, per the rules, given the rules as-is and not modified by your opinion? Can you reply again to my previous question by actually quoting counter-argument rules and not opinion?

Note that my opinion is similar to yours, I don't think you should be able to use dispel magic to counterspell a SPA. But, on the other hand, the actual rules seem to support it and, at worst, it's too ambiguous to make a clear delineation.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Are you saying the rules are wrong?

He said the glossary definition (are glossary definitions "rules"?) is correct but incomplete. He then gave another example of a glossary definition that is correct but incomplete.

What is unclear about that?

 

[Infiniti2000]

He said the glossary definition (are glossary definitions "rules"?) is correct but incomplete. He then gave another example of a glossary definition that is correct but incomplete.

What is unclear about that?

Unclear? Did I use the word unclear? Exactly what and who are you responding to? Your post is seemingly a non sequitur to the quote.

 

[Zelc]

As an aside, usually the best way to counter a spell usually is to hit them with something and force a horrendously high Concentration DC (best use for direct damage spells, actually). Or remove LOS/LOE with a fog or wall effect. You usually end up with a much better chance of "countering" the spell than using Dispel Magic.

 

[azhrei_fje]

(Sorry for the thread hijack. Perhaps this should be a separate thread?)

How would you do a Concentration check when hit by multiple magic missiles or multiple rays from searing light?

Do the individual damages count as separate checks? For magic missile, there is no attack roll so I can see it being ruled either way. For searing light, there is a separate ranged touch attack for each ray. However, in both cases the missiles or rays are fired all at once during a single standard action, and usually a standard action only allows a single attack.

Or would you add up the damage from each missile/ray in a progression and use the result? Say that the first ray deals 12 points, the second deals 14, and the third deals 12. Would you use 100% of the first ray and 50% of the others, making the total 12+7+6 = DC 10+25? Or maybe 100%, 50%, and 25% for a total of 12+7+3 = DC 10+22?

 

[Quartz]

Does this mean, even if you have readied a counterspell Dispel Magic, you cannot dispel a spell that has an instantaneous duration?

No. Because when you cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell, the other spell hasn't taken effect. Take Fireball: opponent casts it and gets a nice big ball of flame which goes out immediately. Nothing to be Dispelled later. However, when you use Dispel Magic as a counterspell to that same Fireball, the Dispel Magic catches it before the Fireball explodes and, if the Dispel check is successful, then the Fireball does not explode.