Coup de grace vs. full attack

[Li Shenron]

If you allow the Coup de Grâce that uses a full round action, you'd have to allow a full attack

What makes you say that?

Frankly, even if I hate CdG, I think it makes more sense to allow it than a full attack.

 

[diaglo]

Why do you want to kill your friend, diaglo?

isn't the point of the game to kill monsters and take their phat lewt?


this guy left me stranded in a room with a cursed demon. and a trapped floor. which tho it didn't kill my character caused me some damage.

i've been waiting and plotting for the opportunity to extract my revenge. and since our quest is almost over... i'm gonna get it. kill him when i'm on guard duty and take his lewt. he has more wealth than anyone else in the party combined.

 

[Li Shenron]

all those attacks are taking place the same 6 seconds aren't they?

At least you can't seriously think the target should be treated as asleep=helpless for the whole series of attacks...

I see that the structure of a round would allow both the full attack and the CdG (if you are ruling that surprise round = full round), or none of the two (if you are ruling that surprise round = partial round).

However IMO it's very fair to be completely out of initiative here, until the target(s) wake up. I'm not sure how I'd handle this, maybe I would let the first attack (whatever it is, CdG or not) be done as out-of-combat, then either roll initiative for everyone and play normally OR granting a partial suprise round at this point, before normal rounds (so that effectively the attacker could have a second attack, but definitely without the target being helpless, just flat-footed).

 

[Berandor]

Of course he's helpless the whole time. A full attack is executed at the exact initiative count, let's say Initiative 15. At Initiative 14, the guy is no longer helpless as he's been awakened quite suddenly. But the hail of metal raining down on him just a milisecond before was simply too fast for him to react to.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

What makes you say that?

What I meant was:
- a Coup de Grâce is a full-round action
- a full attack is a full-round action
- during a surprise round, you may take a partial action

- IF you were to allow a Coup de Grâce during a surprise round, you'd also have to allow a Full Attack action, since, in theory, they both take the same time to accomplish.

Also, I think it's somewhat wrong to base a character's decision (coup de grâce vs. full attack) on out-of-character knowledge (ie the target's HP, fort save, etc.)

How is the rest of the party going to react?

AR

 

[Chroma]

- during a surprise round, you may take a partial action

Why not just wait out the surprise round doing nothing, and then perform either attack... the target is still asleep! *laugh*

 

[Umbran]

Why not just wait out the surprise round doing nothing, and then perform either attack... the target is still asleep! *laugh*

While I know you're being funny, as a rules question the answer is obvious - if you wait out the surprise round and do nothing, it is just as if you didn't take the surprise round. The surprise round is the time between whenever you start acting and the target's first possible response.

In other words, you can only get a standard action off before the guy is no longer surprised. If you try either a full attack or a CDG, he will be awake and no longer helpless before you are done with either.

If you start raining down the Full Attack, you get off one standard action worth of it before he's aware and moving. If you try to line up a CDG, you wake him up in the process before you do the final thrust.

You want to use that surprise round for something other than the attack. Use it for something that will keep him helpless for the entire next round or two, so that you can get either attack form off.

Plus, honestly, you want more setup for revenge. It is a dish best served cold. If you let him live until after the quest is over, you have him around to help with the quest. That means you have less chance of dying in the quest, and he'll have even more phat lewt after the quest is done, right?

 

[Squire James]

This is more a Rules Thread question than a General one... this sort of stuff goes on all the time over there.

Don't forget the Move Silently check to approach the person (who opposes it with a Listen check at -10). If a sleeping guy makes that check, I'd give HIM a surprise round!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

But since the target has the renewal domain, he'll be back to life as soon as diaglo kills him, after which the hold person + CDG combo will take care of the player-killer.

 

[Patman21967]

wow..the difference again between rules mongers and common sense

While I know you're being funny, as a rules question the answer is obvious - if you wait out the surprise round and do nothing, it is just as if you didn't take the surprise round. The surprise round is the time between whenever you start acting and the target's first possible response.

In other words, you can only get a standard action off before the guy is no longer surprised. If you try either a full attack or a CDG, he will be awake and no longer helpless before you are done with either.

If you start raining down the Full Attack, you get off one standard action worth of it before he's aware and moving. If you try to line up a CDG, you wake him up in the process before you do the final thrust.

You want to use that surprise round for something other than the attack. Use it for something that will keep him helpless for the entire next round or two, so that you can get either attack form off.

Plus, honestly, you want more setup for revenge. It is a dish best served cold. If you let him live until after the quest is over, you have him around to help with the quest. That means you have less chance of dying in the quest, and he'll have even more phat lewt after the quest is done, right?

I would make him make a sneak roll, probably Move silent opposed by listen. If he made it, he gets the CdG, if not, he wakes the sleeping guy, and just gets first attack...How could a sleeping person, wake up and start avoiding attacks in 6 seconds...that is just plain dumb...hell, it takes me 20 minutes to even hit the shower and get ready for work...

If the target won the opposed sneak v. listen, I would rule he gets Dex mod, plus no CdG, but Daiglo's character still rained down the full attack before initiative was rolled...

My simple opinion...but hell, I'm not a rules lawyer....