cover of the Hermit

[Golem Joe]

How about everyone else? Has anyone written to any of the companies doing dual-statted books to tell them to stop or does everyone think it's cool?

Well, as I'm planning on using it for my LA game, I wonder how much space will be devoted to d20 statblocks and rules. My guess is more than 5 pages -- which stinks. But I'll wait and see how they balance things. If the adventure is good, it won't matter that much to me.

Dual-stat books are a necessary evil, and while its not my preference, I'm happy to have another adventure for my LA collection, even if I have to wade through a ton of d20 fluff to get to the meat.

 

[Golem Joe]

Re: DUAL SYSTEMS

As for placement. It is pretty generic, but with all adventures written "outside" of TLG we add on material that places the adventure in the world of Erde. I've written up some original material for the Erde setting and dropped it into the Hermit. The adventure takes place in the small Kingdom of Thumbria which lies south of the Eldwood and even beyond the Avar mountains.

Hey Steve,

Does the adventure have ties to Gygax's Lejendary Earth setting? Were those ties removed in favor of a generic setting (to which Erde locations were offered as an alternative)?

 

[Setanta]

Troll Lord wrote:
48 pages my friend? DOH!

The Hermit has 64 pages, with two color inserts!

Oops, I wonder where I got 48 pages from? Oh well, that's still expensive enough that I would not be happy about paying for the LA space if I were to buy this module.

Oh yeah, don't judge TLG's Font, text density by CC. Each product stands alone, but almost all of them come in at 10 font. These three puppies do as does the Heart of Glass.

I wasn't judging it by CC, which I don't have and haven't even really looked at (partly because it, too, is dual-statted, but more because I don't care to have a cant dictionary). I'm judging by the two TLG products I do have, A Lion in Ropes and Mortality of Green. The fonts are large in those two products. Of course, once Dark Druids is in stores, I'll take a look and make my decision based on what I see.

Anyway, don't take my dislike of dual-stat books personally. JoeGKushner asked if anyone had a problem with dual-stat books, and I do, so I responded. I like to give feedback on what I do and don't like in products, so here it is. Take it for what it's worth- one consumer who won't be buying that one product.

 

[Troll Lord]

Golem Joe,

Hey, Gary placed the mod in the LA setting. Now, after ten minutes of looking for the mock up (which should have already been sent to the printer) I find that it takes place in the Kingdom of Eraxong. Particularly in the Kaalkh Mountains of Miria and on.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have any maps in front of me. I added one page of material for Erde.

I'm hoping that the LA folks won't be disappointed either. It reads pretty generic I think and both sides of the coin will be able to use it without any fuss.

Setanta, yeppers on the old mods. I forgot about the large font type in those. And its cool about not wanting dual stat blocked books, you just gave me a perfect opportunity to stat some of the books vital stats!

Steve

 

[Golem Joe]

Golem Joe,

Hey, Gary placed the mod in the LA setting. Now, after ten minutes of looking for the mock up (which should have already been sent to the printer) I find that it takes place in the Kingdom of Eraxong. Particularly in the Kaalkh Mountains of Miria and on.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have any maps in front of me.

Wow! Didn't see that one coming. Very weird choice for the location (intriguing. even). BTW, in the LE setting, Miria lies west just off the coast of Anatis, the northern most western continent (sort of based on the North American continent, but with some significant changes). It's an island nation, but don't confuse it with Hawaii (its considerably larger -- about a 1/3rd of the size of Australia). Just FYI.

I added one page of material for Erde.

I don't know Steve. That's one page of more useless information I'm gonna have to shell out for. On top of, I'm guessing, about 10 pages of stat-blocks? I just don't know if it's worth the money!

I'm hoping that the LA folks won't be disappointed either. It reads pretty generic I think and both sides of the coin will be able to use it without any fuss.

Right. I'm looking forward to it. All this talk about content and money seems to ignore the fact that the real value of an adventure is playability and inspiration. If you are only looking for stat-blocks and "crunchy bits", is ANY adventure mod really worth it?

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't know about others, but when I'm talking about dual-stats, I'm not just talking about adventuers. Way of the Samuria and Ninja both are dual statted and some Holistic material and Pinnacle is dual statted. I've picked up the AEG but since i don't play Deadlands, have avoided everything but the Monster book.

Adventuers, by their nature, are generally not as lengthy as rule books in the first place. By taking away pages for another game system that I have no interest at all in (if it was Hero, GURPS, Rolemaster, or BRP) I won't have as much apathy towards it. In addition, I get the feeling it's done this way just to support Gary's line. If I'm wrong, all the Troll Lord products would have Lejendary stuff in it right?

I could be completely wrong and I'll look through it when I'm at the hobby store.

 

[Golem Joe]

I don't know about others, but when I'm talking about dual-stats, I'm not just talking about adventuers. Way of the Samuria and Ninja both are dual statted and some Holistic material and Pinnacle is dual statted. I've picked up the AEG but since i don't play Deadlands, have avoided everything but the Monster book.

But how much useless info was in that monster book? How much tweaking do you have to do to fit creatures like Wendigos and Skinwalkers, tailored for Native American lore, into your DnD game? Understand, dual-stat is not my prefered way of doing things either, but its become a necessary evil since games I like (7th Sea, Fading Suns, Deadlands) have embraced the d20 system in hopes to promote their settings. I find it interesting you've no problem plumming setting specific books for feats and prestige classes, potentially disregarding all the (useless) setting material, but when it comes to alien game stats, you have a fit. Oriental Adventures offers a lot of info that is useless to my GH game, and I won't buy it regardless of ninjas or feats.

Adventuers, by their nature, are generally not as lengthy as rule books in the first place. By taking away pages for another game system that I have no interest at all in (if it was Hero, GURPS, Rolemaster, or BRP) I won't have as much apathy towards it.

Huh? So you are normally more apathetic to adventures with nothing but d20 stats? Well then by all means, let me suggest a few non-d20 adventures that should make you positively giddy.

Adventures are worth more than just stat-blocks. I can always convert a good adventure one way or another. The value of an adventure is subjective anyway. There are some really crappy d20 adventures out there that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but those are supposed to be better values because they aren't dual stated? Whatever.

If the Hermit tanks as a product, its gonna have more to do with the quality of the adventure than the number of pages devoted to useless content.

In addition, I get the feeling it's done this way just to support Gary's line. If I'm wrong, all the Troll Lord products would have Lejendary stuff in it right?

First of all, The Hermit was originally an LA adventure, designed to introduce people to the system years ago when it was run exclusively (the mod, not the game) on Macray's Keep. So in this chicken or the egg instance (no pun intended), there would be no adventure w/o the LA system.

Second, I don't pretend to know the specifics behind TLGs and Gygax. But I will say this: my first TLG book was Canting Crew. My next will be The Hermit and the World Builders book. Not because they were written by Gygax, but because they have some support for LA. So TLG gets a customer they otherwise would have missed. And I know plenty of other LA players who will do the same. If TLG were to put out sourcebooks that covered LA but weren't written by Gygax, I'd seriously look at those as well. In fact, I say bring it on! If the quality is there, they'd get the full support of the LA community -- even if all they did was offer conversions as a web enhancement.

Now there's no doubt d20 has a larger audience than LA. But does TLG lose more d20 customers by dual stating these books than they gain through LA players? I dunno. Obviously not or they'd probably renegotiate their deal.

 

[Setanta]

Golem Joe wrote:
Adventures are worth more than just stat-blocks. I can always convert a good adventure one way or another.

Agreed, though it is easier if an adventure you'd like to buy and/or run is written for your system of choice. However, given how easy it is convert, what's the point of dual-statting for a system that has relatively small market share? This particular adventure's price is already a bit on the high-side, before losing 5 pages to LA stats and another page to Erde placement. I'm guessing that that is due in part to EGG deservedly making more than other, less accomplished writers.

There are some really crappy d20 adventures out there that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but those are supposed to be better values because they aren't dual stated? Whatever.

Not at all. If there are two adventures of equal quality, at the same page count and price, then which is the better value- the one that only has stats for the system of your choice, or the one that has dual-stats with one set of stats being for a system you don't play? There are plenty of good or even great adventures out there at reasonable prices.

If the Hermit tanks as a product, its gonna have more to do with the quality of the adventure than the number of pages devoted to useless content.

I'd be very surprised if it tanks, given the by-line. People will buy it for no other reason than the author.

First of all, The Hermit was originally an LA adventure, designed to introduce people to the system years ago when it was run exclusively (the mod, not the game) on Macray's Keep.

Was it ever produced as an LA adventure? If so, what's the point of reproducing the LA stats here?

If the quality is there, they'd get the full support of the LA community -- even if all they did was offer conversions as a web enhancement.

I agree. At this point, I only play D&D, but in previous times I played many other systems. I would have been very happy to buy modules for other systems with web enhancements for my system of choice. I think it would have been really cool for TLG to provide 64 pages of D20 material in The Hermit, and a web enhancement for LA stats. I still wouldn't have bought it though ($14 for 64 pages is still too much, IMHO, and I'm not short on adventures to run right now).

Now there's no doubt d20 has a larger audience than LA. But does TLG lose more d20 customers by dual stating these books than they gain through LA players? I dunno. Obviously not or they'd probably renegotiate their deal.

Well, I certainly don't know either. However, I do know that there was a lot of complaining about the price of Canting Crew, here at EN World and other places. The complaints often included comments about all the "wasted" LA pages. However, again I'd be surprised if it didn't sell at least reasonably well given the author.

 

[Golem Joe]

Agreed, though it is easier if an adventure you'd like to buy and/or run is written for your system of choice.

No doubt.

However, given how easy it is convert, what's the point of dual-statting for a system that has relatively small market share? This particular adventure's price is already a bit on the high-side, before losing 5 pages to LA stats and another page to Erde placement. I'm guessing that that is due in part to EGG deservedly making more than other, less accomplished writers.

Didn't you just answer this question above? Besides, when you're playing a game, does it really matter what the market share is? As to the price, I don't think its that bad for a good adventure. WotC's Sunless Citadel was $10 for 32 pages and had a MUCH higher print run than anything fathomed by TGL. I don't find a $13 price tag inhibiting, even when I have to put up with tons of useless d20 stuff (I play DnD, but don't run it). The time it would take me to write a comperable adventure would cost me a lot more $.

Not at all. If there are two adventures of equal quality, at the same page count and price, then which is the better value- the one that only has stats for the system of your choice, or the one that has dual-stats with one set of stats being for a system you don't play? There are plenty of good or even great adventures out there at reasonable prices.

Hmmm...whichever one I can milk for the most ideas, that provides enough hooks to build further adventures off of, that can spawn more hours of campaign play... Like I said, there is more value to the module than page count and "quality." The value of this adventure is made moreso in that I won't have to spend a couple of hours converting it as I normally would. That doesn't do much to address the needs of d20 players, though admittedly.

I'd be very surprised if it tanks, given the by-line. People will buy it for no other reason than the author.

If that was the case, then LA would be a hot seller, no? Fact is there are plenty of people out there who don't care if Gygax's name is on the cover. For others, its a definite reason NOT to buy the book. And a lot of fence sitters might not tolerate another mod if the adventure turns out to be a dog.

Was it ever produced as an LA adventure? If so, what's the point of reproducing the LA stats here?

It was never released. So the LA stats aren't being reproduced anymore than the d20 stats. My point was that the product was conceived as a LA adventure, which is clear when you read Steve's account of their conversion issues.

I agree. At this point, I only play D&D, but in previous times I played many other systems. I would have been very happy to buy modules for other systems with web enhancements for my system of choice. I think it would have been really cool for TLG to provide 64 pages of D20 material in The Hermit, and a web enhancement for LA stats. I still wouldn't have bought it though ($14 for 64 pages is still too much, IMHO, and I'm not short on adventures to run right now).

Well there's the question of perceived value. I can't fault you on that logic. Web enhancements are nice, though I suspect it requires just as much in the way of costs for TLG to include the stats in print, for a variety of possible reasons.

Well, I certainly don't know either. However, I do know that there was a lot of complaining about the price of Canting Crew, here at EN World and other places. The complaints often included comments about all the "wasted" LA pages. However, again I'd be surprised if it didn't sell at least reasonably well given the author.

The problem with the Canting Crew is it looked like ass. The layout and font choices ranged from acceptable to rank amateur. I heard far more complaints about the large "useless" dictionary of cant ("We're actually supposed to use this? I'll just make an innuendo check!") than the few pages of LA material (coincidentally, I believe I only heard Joe complain about that). That product failed to meet expectations on a variety of levels, despite some very good content (I'd say the first third of the book is one of the best treatments of city design I own). To lay the blame at the dual-stated section is extremely short sighted, IMHO.

 

[Setanta]

Didn't you just answer this question above? Besides, when you're playing a game, does it really matter what the market share is?

I'm not sure how I answered my own question about dual-statting. When you're playing a game, its market share certainly isn't important. However, when producing material for one, publishers generally take market share into consideration.

Anyway, instead of an adventure being 64 pages for $14 with approximately 6 pages being "wasted" (on D20 for you and LA for me), would you still be interested in the product if it was 128 pages for $25, with half the book taken up by stats for systems you don't play? There comes a point where enough it too much, and for me it's paying for any space for a system I don't play. Obviously you have more tolerance for paying for material you won't use. I hope you enjoy the adventure.

Hmmm...whichever one I can milk for the most ideas, that provides enough hooks to build further adventures off of, that can spawn more hours of campaign play... Like I said, there is more value to the module than page count and "quality."

I think we're differing on semantics here. To me, factors like idea milking, future hooks, campaign play hours spawned, etc., all figure into "quality" (along with stuff like how fun is the adventure, how much easier does it make my life as DM, etc.). That quality is then measured against price to determine value as I see it.

If that was the case, then LA would be a hot seller, no? Fact is there are plenty of people out there who don't care if Gygax's name is on the cover. For others, its a definite reason NOT to buy the book. And a lot of fence sitters might not tolerate another mod if the adventure turns out to be a dog.

Good point, however, I think there is a difference between the name Gary Gygax by itself, and the name Gary Gygax plus D&D (which D20 is certainly close enough). Personally, I don't like his writing style, so I plan to stay away from anything that is an exposition (CC seems to have had plenty). I'll keep an open mind to his adventures, though, but not this one given the value I perceive it to have.

The problem with the Canting Crew is it looked like ass. The layout and font choices ranged from acceptable to rank amateur. I heard far more complaints about the large "useless" dictionary of cant ("We're actually supposed to use this? I'll just make an innuendo check!") than the few pages of LA material (coincidentally, I believe I only heard Joe complain about that). That product failed to meet expectations on a variety of levels, despite some very good content (I'd say the first third of the book is one of the best treatments of city design I own). To lay the blame at the dual-stated section is extremely short sighted, IMHO.

I'm not laying the blame on the dual stats. I'm just saying that price/perceived value was a common complaint, and the pages used on LA stats factored into those complaints. I agree that the poor layout was a more common complaint. I don't know why someone would complain about the Cant, though. That was the point of the book, which is why I never considered buying it. I don't need or want a Cant dictionary, so the product simply wasn't for me. I hear the city design stuff is good, but I doubt I'll ever get a chance to read it. Even when the local WotC store someday puts its excess copies on sale for 50% off (they order way too many copies of everything), I won't be buying this product.