CR 12 Creature?

[Herzog]

I've been running a converted Basic D&D adventure for some time now using 3.5, and I'm finally getting to the closing encounter of The Lost City, namely Zargon.

I've been using either 3.0 conversions of monsters or the 3.5 versions straight out of the 3.5 MM's, but the final encounter, Zargon, is a monster written up for the adventure, and the only converted version I have of him is 3.0 AND CR 8.

My party being lvl 10 by now, this being the final encounter, and them being prepared (they found his 'hideout', which he can't leave, and are making battleplans and taking a nights rest before going in) I want to give them a challenge. Since the party is relatively low on one-shot items and, last I checked, seem to have the same or lower attack, dmg and AC as a typical NPC of lvl 10, I think CR 12 should do it.

After several attempts to 'upgrade' the CR8 version, I finally gave up and decided to start over, picking up only those parts that I couldn't derive from the monster creation section in the back of MMI.

The only thing left is to ask the nice people of ENWorld if they think the version I arrived at is, indeed, a CR 12 monster, or if not, ask for suggestions on changes to make it CR 12:

Zargon (Tentacled Horror)
CR 12(?)
Huge Aberration
HD 16d8+70(152 hp)
Init +0
Spd 30 ft
AC: 22 (+0 DEX; -2 Size; +14 NA)
Bab/Grapple: +12/+28 (+8 size,+8 STR)
Full attack: 6 tentacles(+18/1d8+8), bite (+16/2d6+4)
Size/Reach 15/15
SA: Improved Grab, Constrict (1d8+8), Rend (2d6+6)
SQ Tremorsense, Darkvision 60', Immune to poison, acid resistance 10, fire resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, cold resistance 10
SR: 20
AL: CE
Saves: Will +13;Ref +7;Fort+10
STR 26 DEX 10 CON 20 INT 14 WIS 16 CHA 18
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Multiattack, Lighting Reflexes
Skills: Bluff +15, Intimidate +27, Knowledge (Arcana) +14, Listen +15, Sense Motive +17, Spot +15

So, what do you think?
(also, is my constrict and Rend damage correct? I couldn't find ANY reference as to how they are calculated....)

 

[kitcik]

I've been running a converted Basic D&D adventure for some time now using 3.5, and I'm finally getting to the closing encounter of The Lost City, namely Zargon.

I've been using either 3.0 conversions of monsters or the 3.5 versions straight out of the 3.5 MM's, but the final encounter, Zargon, is a monster written up for the adventure, and the only converted version I have of him is 3.0 AND CR 8.

My party being lvl 10 by now, this being the final encounter, and them being prepared (they found his 'hideout', which he can't leave, and are making battleplans and taking a nights rest before going in) I want to give them a challenge. Since the party is relatively low on one-shot items and, last I checked, seem to have the same or lower attack, dmg and AC as a typical NPC of lvl 10, I think CR 12 should do it.

After several attempts to 'upgrade' the CR8 version, I finally gave up and decided to start over, picking up only those parts that I couldn't derive from the monster creation section in the back of MMI.

The only thing left is to ask the nice people of ENWorld if they think the version I arrived at is, indeed, a CR 12 monster, or if not, ask for suggestions on changes to make it CR 12:

Zargon (Tentacled Horror)
CR 12(?)
Huge Aberration
HD 16d8+70(152 hp)
Init +0
Spd 30 ft
AC: 22 (+0 DEX; -2 Size; +14 NA)
Bab/Grapple: +12/+28 (+8 size,+8 STR)
Full attack: 6 tentacles(+18/1d8+8), bite (+16/2d6+4)
Size/Reach 15/15
SA: Improved Grab, Constrict (1d8+8), Rend (2d6+6)
SQ Tremorsense, Darkvision 60', Immune to poison, acid resistance 10, fire resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, cold resistance 10
SR: 20
AL: CE
Saves: Will +13;Ref +7;Fort+10
STR 26 DEX 10 CON 20 INT 14 WIS 16 CHA 18
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Multiattack, Lighting Reflexes
Skills: Bluff +15, Intimidate +27, Knowledge (Arcana) +14, Listen +15, Sense Motive +17, Spot +15

So, what do you think?
(also, is my constrict and Rend damage correct? I couldn't find ANY reference as to how they are calculated....)

My 11th level, non-optimized monk*, if buffed with Haste and Enlarge (you basically said they have prep time), and with our bard blasting inspiration, would likely one shot this dude on a pouncing charge. If not, it would be at very low HP.

Since it essentially has no magical offense, this creature is like a big fighter with some feats.

Now, if you add some minions and some environmental barriers, this could work.



* really monstrous humanoid 1 / monk 8 / warblade 2

 

[anest1s]

Looks scary. I think you are missing one feat.

The speed looks dangerous, and with that reach the PCs won't be able to flee.

//Nevermind, I just saw that it is trapped and that the PCs will have time to prepare.

You could also check that Darktentacles monster from MM2

Edit2: Or you could attack them when they sleep

 

[Greenfield]

Most tentacled grapple monsters, such as Giant Squid and Kraken, have a specific number of hit points needed to break/sever a tentacle. You should consider this.

Now, how big is the party?

His AC looks low for the level. Consider that spells will work half the time, and elemental damage seems to be covered. You're okay on that front.

On the face of it, it's a real fright. Able, theoretically, to grapple 6 opponents at the same time. Most grapplers suffer a penalty of -20 if they aren't using "both arms". Determine what the penalties/bonuses are for grapples using one, two, three or more arms. It will get argued, and you'd best be prepared.

As for your constrict and rend damage: Look at Kraken as an example of a CR12 grappling tentacled monster.

 

[anest1s]

Zargon (Tentacled Horror)
CR 12(?)
Huge Aberration
HD 16d8+80+16 (168 hp)
Init +4
Spd 30 ft
AC: 26 (+4 DEX; -2 Size; +14 NA)
Bab/Grapple: +12/+28 (+8 size,+8 STR)
Full attack: 6 tentacles(+18/1d8+8), bite (+16/2d6+4)
Size/Reach 15/15 (tentacles 30ft reach, mouth 5ft reach)
SA: Improved Grab, Constrict (1d8+8), Swallow whole
SQ Tremorsense 60ft, Darkvision 60ft, Immune to poison, acid resistance 10, fire resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, cold resistance 10
DR: 10/(something)
AL: CE
Saves: Will +13;Ref +9;Fort+10
STR 26 DEX 18 CON 20 INT 14 WIS 16 CHA 12
Feats:Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Thoughness, +1 other
Skills: Bluff +11, Intimidate +23, Knowledge (Arcana) +14, Listen +15, Sense Motive +17, Spot +15
_________________________________

I couldn't resist the temptation I am not responsible for whatever happens with this one. I don't know if I would use it either.

• I gave it Dexterity for Combat reflexes, to give it some AoOs. Cha was useless so it got killed
• I removed Rend since because you only have 6 tentacles you want to spread them around anyway.
• I gave it swallow whole. Mwuahahahha!
• I changed the reach a bit.
• I changed the feats a bit. Combat Reflexes allows you more AoOs and allows you to AoO even when flat footed. Then you can trip at +20 for a free attack and probably an other AoO. Kitcik's monk would be a bit more unhappy.
• DR/something, I don't know what, but swallowed guys will now have harder time getting out.
• SR is no more, you are intelligent enough to go after the casters first.
• Maybe you can start hiding your reach until everyone is inside. If you really hate casters you can change some feats for the mage-slayers feats, that will ruin their day for sure. (But I don't know if the monster has hate-mages background)

(Edit: I don't know about the CR either - I was just trying just to make it a bit better without changing the CR too much)

 

[Empirate]

I'd put Zargon at CR 10, 11 at the outmost. Compare to a few other CR 12 monsters and you see why:


The Kraken is an eminently good point of departure. It has twice the HP with comparable AC to Zargon. It has much more accurate, more, AND more powerful, attacks. Its Resist Energy spell-like can even emulate your monster's elemental resistances. It is furthermore aquatic (difficult environment built-in), and has a few other interesting abilities. It is generally speaking much more powerful overall.

The Roper can also be considered a grappling monster of sorts. It has very low HP for the level and all but average AC, but given its typical tactics, it will at least usually get the first shot off. Cold resistance, fire vulnerability, electricity immunity... roughly comparable to Zargon. With its HUGE SR for the level, the Roper is nigh invulnerable to direct spell damage, anyway. The Roper's attacks initiate something that's similar to grappling, but don't put the monster at a disadvantage, and cannot be defeated easily except with Freedom of Movement. Its nastiest ability is the powerful debuff it puts on anything it touches with its strands. All in all, the Roper is probably about as dangerous as Zargon, generally speaking, but it can be a little more disconcerting to fight, I think. I also think the Roper is a weak CR 12, incidentally.

The Colossal Monstrous Scorpion is another grappler. It's colossal, with a Str of 30, so its grapple mod is about as powerful as it gets. It also has TWICE Zargon's HP, and better AC. It has fewer attacks, but it's poisonous (1d10 Con, impossible save DC at the level). It also has a mindless vermin's perks and drawbacks: mind-affecting immunity, but also a distinct lack of imagination. In a straight-up brawl, it beats nine kinds of sheet out of Zargon. It might be easier to get rid of to intelligent opponents.

The 11-headed Cryo/Pyrohydra has lower HP, comparable AC, but fast healing 21 (!), and 11 (!) breath weapons. It can't grapple and has no elemental resistance, but has 11 attacks instead of 6, and the [cold/fire] subtype. Overall, it is the more powerful monster, I'd say, although the difference isn't as obvious as with the Kraken or Scorpion. Fast healing coupled with huge up-front AoE damage should push it ahead of Zargon.

The Kolyarut has much less HP, but much better AC, which more or less cancels each other out. It also has normal Construct immunities, DR that's hard to overcome, Fast Healing, AND Vampiric Touch at will, making it rather durable overall. Its melee attacks aren't up to snuff, but it has a nasty ranged option in its Enervation rays, which Zargon lacks. Lots of save-or-die/suck abilities, plus Invisibility (also at will) offer quite a few options. It also has non-trivial (for the level) SR. All in all, the Kolyarut has the potential to be a much, much nastier monster than Zargon.


Generally speaking, Zargon can't hold a candle to most of these creatures. You might want to consider giving him some kind of offensive/defensive twist to shake things up a little. How about Mirror Image 3/day and a Mind Flayer's Mind Blast 3/day?

 

[Greenfield]

Just for fun, include some hurling weapons within reach. Perhaps even a Returning axe or two. I mean, you've made it "smart enough to go after spell casters", you could make it smart enough to use tools as well.

Centuries of advanced technology, and they still don't know how to use a doorknob!

All too often, DMs fail to plan a monster's treasure out in advance, and it turns out that they were sitting an an item or weapon that they should have been using.

The concept of the PC's entering stealthily, only to be met with a barrage of debris, is just a delightful vision.

 

[anest1s]

Just for fun, include some hurling weapons within reach. Perhaps even a Returning axe or two. I mean, you've made it "smart enough to go after spell casters", you could make it smart enough to use tools as well.



All too often, DMs fail to plan a monster's treasure out in advance, and it turns out that they were sitting an an item or weapon that they should have been using.

The concept of the PC's entering stealthily, only to be met with a barrage of debris, is just a delightful vision.

I forgot to add a second pair of normal mouths - for mocking the PCs

Sadly if they are tripped they get a +4 against ranged attacks

I like the idea if it being prepared too.

 

[Sekhmet]

I agree with just about everything mentioned in this thread so far.
I think any singular hero of ECL 10-12 could walk all over this guy as presented in the original post, and I think that most of the CR12 singular monsters could either outright mob the floor with it, or at least win given circumstance.

With the proposed changes by anest1s, the majority of parties of ECL12 would probably spend 15-25% of their daily resources fighting this monster, in my opinion.

 

[Herzog]

Great feedback everyone!

Ok, time for some replies:

@kitcik : It's located in a slime-and-bone filled pit, which would make charging impossible, require balance checks (or something like it. Haven't thought that one out yet) and would require everyone who wants to combat it to be within reach. I didn't mention this because I wanted to know whether this is an appropriate CR, not an appropriate EL.
It's also posing as a god, so calling in some 'priests' to pester any characters who try to get out of the melee could work.

@anest1s : I'll check out the mentioned dartentacles creature. However, MM2 being 3.0, I'm not sure how much use it's going to be....

@Greenfield : I'll re-examine AC. And give the Kraken a look-over. Good pointers! The party consists of a wizard 9, paladin 9, cleric 10, duskblade 10 and thief 11.

@anest1s (again): I actually gave it DR 10/good, but forgot to include it in the description. I think the Dex you gave it is considered a bit high for a huge creature. I like the switch from cleave to combat reflexes though. I think I'll keep it. Also, Improved Toughness. Should give it some more staying power.
I don't think the reach will be necessary because of the limited space the fight will take place in, and swallow whole, while it seems appropriate, doesn't 'feel right' for this creature.
SR AND a grappler seem a bit overdone, I agree (just experienced being grappled myself during this nights session. Being a kobold definately has its disadvantages....) All in all, you've given me something to think about.

@Empirate : Ok, so a high CR 10 or low CR 11. Kraken was mentioned before, Roper is also a good pointer. I'll check them out.
I don't want to include additional abilities (especially not psionic ones. No psionics used in my campaign....), but given these abilities, how would you increase it to CR 12? Higher Dex? Improved Natural Attack? How would you rate the version anest1s posted?

Some kind of weapon use (even throwing weapons) seems counter-productive for a creature that can just squeeze the life out of its opponents. Adding extra mouths sounds fun, but I don't want to deviate too much from the original creature description.


Final piece of information I didn't include: It has 'slow regeneration'. Meaning it can't actually die (unless thrown into a vulcano), but stores it's consiousness into its horn when reduced to 0 hp, regenerating its body over a period of several years. I didn't include this in the statblock because it has no combat function whatsoever, so shouldn't affect the CR.