cr and party size

[alsih2o]

i am sorry if this one has been done, but i have missed it if it has

i have a larger party, not huge, but 6 folks: druid, cleric, rogue, barbarian, illusionist, ranger. travelling along is a cow and and wolf.

Cr's are built for a party of 4, and i have 6, with an animal companion that can whip anyone in the group. i am wondering what kind of adptions have worked for folks with large parties in the past.

upping the CR gets some critters that can wipe any one party member with a single pimp slap( they are still lvl 1) but i do not want to be trapped in a constant deluge of 1/4, 1/2, and 1 cr opponents.

what can i do besides using tribes and groups to better challenge my party without stomping them mercilessly?

 

[Arnwyn]

I still use the CR/EL guidelines, actually, with only a slight modification.

A party of 4 characters is considered an EL of the sum of each charater's level divided by four (as per the normal rules). Eg. 4 characters each of level 4 = (4+4+4+4)/4 = an EL 4 party. (Duh! I included this just to show the process.)

A party of 5-6 characters is considered an EL of the sum of the highest four character's levels divided by 4, plus 1. Thus, a group of 6 characters of level 4 would be an EL 5 party.

A party of 7-9 characters: EL +2.

The above "party" includes NPCs and/or animal companions.

This guide has worked for my group pretty well, actually. (As with the entire CR/EL concept, it's hardly perfect, but I've found it to be pretty darn good.) To this day, I have yet to accidentally overwhelm them.

Your group looks to be an EL 3 group (6 characters + 1 animal companion) - I'd be surprised if most CR 3 monsters could pimp-slap a level 1 group, especially if the animal companion is reasonably powerful. (Sure, there will be a couple, but like all the designers have said - CR is not perfect, and only a guideline.) So CR 1, 2, and 3 monsters should be fine, IMO. (It is for my group of 6 characters.)

Aside:
Not sure what your problem is with using "groups", though...

Edit: My "party EL" comes from a reply to me from Skip Williams back when the DMG had just come out, and I was wondering what to do with my 6 players...

 

[diaglo]

we have a large group too. we kill them all and let the DM sort them out.

 

[Datt]

I too was wondering why the problem with sending groups of creatures at them. I serisouly can't remember the last time we fought just one creature. My group has between 6 to 7 players depending on who can show up. Even when we fight to BBEG there are always lots of minions around to help him out. Our last fight was between our group of 6 and 2 Hill Giants, 2 Drow, and I think 6 or 7 Duergar. Unfortunately 2 of us went down, 1 was a 13th level wizard who failed on 2 different saving throws for Flame Stirke. But in the end we were able to defeat all of the enemy. In part to me single handily killing 1 Giant, and 5 Duergar. I think we all like having multiple targets that way we are not all crowded around 1 big thing. Oh, just to let you know our group looks like this, 13 Wiz, 14 Ftr, 14 Sorc/Chaneler, 14 Clr, 15 Ftr/Gk, 16 Rg/Snpr.

 

[MarauderX]

I agree with arnwyn's logic out of the DMG, but sometimes you need a little extra power to take the PCs off guard. I usually throw in a few 'safety measures' to make sure the PCs are challenged with the BBEG at the end of an adventure such as having optional statues that come to life or invisible snakes that can attack party behind the lines in the middle of the fight. A bad guy is always prepared.

If they are too knocked up to face the BBEG, I have the encounters occur separately, so that they don't get swamped all at once by a hoard of evil guys and their pets.

With larger parties like that I might just throw some random encounters at them that may or may not have anything to do with the campaign. This way I can size them up and what they are most likely to do against similiar opponents, and know what to add to the next one to possibly kill a PC or two if they don't work together.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

I don't remember who first made this point, but it's very important when dealing with large parties: balance encounters by adding more creatures of the appropriate CR, which changes the EL. Generally, do NOT try to balance by bringing in a higher-CR opponent. Examples:

a) 4 characters, level 2 vs. 4 orcs
b) 8 characters, level 2 vs. 8 orcs
c) 8 characters, level 2, vs. 1 gargoyle
d) 4 characters, level 4, vs 1 gargoyle

Example "a" is a typical encounter, which the party should win using no more than 25% of the party's resources. Examples "b" and "d" are identically balanced.

Example "c", however, is problematic. While it may seem balanced (double the number of characters, +2 CR for the monster), if the party lacks the right items and/or spells, the encounter could easily be a TPK. Gargoyles have DR 15/+1. How many 2nd-level characters have a magic weapon, or can do more than 15 points of damage with an attack with a normal weapon? If the spellcasters don't have Magic Weapon memorized (or a boatload of magic missiles), the party's only real option is to run and hope some get away (the gargoyle flies at 45', so the entire party won't make it).

When designing encounters, consider carefully if the party has a realistic chance, based on the specific opponent's abilities. And always remember that increasing the EL is not the same as increasing the CR of the monsters.

 

[Davelozzi]

In Dungeon # 89, Jonathon Tweet gives guidelines for determining Effective Party Level for large & small parties.*

A group of 6 characters has an EPL of +1 so it should be able to handle an encounter 1 EL higher than a standard 4 person party of the same average character level. In other words, if your characters are 5th level, EL 6 should be a balanced encounter for your party.

I've tried to use these rules in my campaign, and I've tried to use John Dell's Encounter Calculator (linked to somewhere on this site), but I've found that both tend to fail me most of the time. In my opinion, there's no substitute for eyeballing it.

That said, the suggestions given by Sir Whiskers above are great.

*p. 80, in "Wedding Bells"

 

[S'mon]

Just use mostly EL2 encounters and you should be ok, as long as you eyeball the stats first. Eg MM ogres aren't really CR2, more a strong CR3 - using one vs 1st level PCs will likely kill several. Generally speaking, 2 CR1 monsters (2 gnolls) or 1 (real) CR2 (1 bugbear) would make an appropriate moderate challenge. For a tough end-of-scenario fight, look to about EL 4, with multiple foes - eg an NPC Wizard-3 with either 2 CR 1 guards (eg gnolls or Fighter-1s), or 4 CR 1/2 guards (hobgoblins or Warrior-1s - if you use orcs, change their weapon to sword or battleaxe) would be appropriate.
At this level, generally avoid using single tough high-damage foes, like ogres or 3rd-level NPC fighters if you want to avoid killing PCs. The 3rd level DMG fighter will stomp most PCs of equal or lower level, I discovered!

 

[Drawmack]

I use this system, which seems to work prety well.

CR = pl/ps + sm

pl = the summation of all PCs levels.
ps = the number of members in the party.
sm = the number of party members minus four divided by two rounded down.

So a party of 6 or levels 243544 would be a party of level:
(2+4+3+5+4+4)/6 + floor((6-4)/2)

22/6 + floor(2/2)

3.5 + 1

(follow stadard mathematical rules for rounding party level i.e. add 0.5 and round down)
4+1

This party is a party level 5.

(BTW: This formula also works for party's smaller then 4)


Animal Companions and familiars.
Using HP, Attack Bonus, Saves, Skills, Feats and special abilities assign the creature a rough level. Then add the creature into the party as a party member with their level.

So if you have an animal companion that is equivocal to a 1st level character in the above party the equation would become
(1+2+3+4+5+4+4)/7 + floor((7/4)/2) = 23/7 + floor(3/2) = 3.2 + 1 = 4

 

[uberkitty]

There's an easy way to do it using DMG table 4-1.

1. Figure the party's average level (add all levels, divide by number of PCs).

2. Find the "Number of Creatures" column that corresponds to the number of PCs in the party.

3. In that column, find the number that corresponds to the party's average level.

4. Look across to the 4 Creatures column. The number in the 4 creatures column that's on the same row as the number you just found is the party's EL.

5. Use that EL for determining appropriate CR.

Example: You have a party of seven PCs: 1 LVL 8, 1 LVL 7, 3 LVL 6, 2 LVL 5. Party level average = 6. Look in "7-9 creatures" column, find number 6. Follow that row back to "4 creatures" column. That party has an EL of 8.