D&D 5E CR balance and proof of concept...or not

[Li Shenron]

As I understand it, 5E CR is just a measure of what to throw/not to throw at your players.

This is also how I understand it.

In other words, don't use the CR to build encounters, use the xp.

You use both:

- a monster CR will tell you whether you should have any monster of this type in an encounter for your level X group of PCs

- the XP budget (which depends if you want an "easy", "moderate" or "hard" encounter) will tell you how many monsters of the chosen type you should put in that encounter

I have the feeling that maybe CR is evaluated thinking a one-on-one confrontation, and monster's CR ~ PC level. So if e.g. your PCs are all between level 3 and 5, you shouldn't put any monster of CR 4+, because this means that it's likely this monster will drop the level 3 PCs (i.e. the lowest-level PCs in the party).

The XP budget is still determined by the PCs' individual levels, but maybe it's more like a "whole encounter" difficulty gauge.

Clearly, if you choose low-CR creatures, you'll need more of them to reach the XP total (but watch out for ending up with an "outnumbered" party of PC, which generally increases the difficulty).

It's possible that for monsters which are simple bags of HP with very normal attacks, using both CR and XP is redundant, but as soon as you have monsters with spell-like abilities it might become important to differentiate the effect. E.g. what if you use a monster like the Banshee that has an ability which affects all the PCs at once?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As others said: PCs are partially balanced by the fact that some classes are a bit stronger on a longer day, some are a bit stronger on a shorter day. I don´t mind that. I believe, all classes are closer together than in 3.x. Every class gets something back on a short rest, even wizards, so a 5 min work day seems not so good as in 3.x. The limitation of 1 big buff spell per level also limits nova potential (buff up, scry and teleport) and also encourages wizards to spread their spells over several encounters, saving up for the big buff spell in the next encounter.

If you compare damaging spells and those concentration spells, you´ll notice, that a wizard gets a lot more mileage out of his spells if he does not "waste them" all at once. this is only on last resort, a position the Big Bad Wizard should be everytime in the last battle. But usually the PC wizard also tries to safe up as much as possible to face him.

As others mention, XP is the main encounter building tool. I could even imagine two creatures with the same XP but different CR, as one works particularly well in groups, but can´t deal a lot of damage by himself, while a glass cannon like enemy has a high CR, but a comparable low XP, because at lower levels, he may kill one PC after another, while being nearly immune to PC attacks (Utilizing a fly spell). Once PCs can cast fly themselves or have powerful ranged attacks, the flying enemy who can´t kill a PC in a single blow is now very vulnerable himself.

So to back it up with numbers:

Wizard 5: CR 5, xp 1000
Fighter 5: CR 3, XP 1000

The wizard can easily take out lvl 3 PCs, flying in the air, shield spell to deflect arrows and magic missiles alike and killing the party with magic missiles and fireball spells. Once PCs are level 5, the PC wizard will bring him down, backed up by a flying fighter, but a well aimed fireball from the enemy wizard can still do quite a lot of damage.

The Fighter, without magical aid, has no such tricks up his sleeve and can be fought at level 3, but is very dangerous at this point. A party of 4 lvl 3 PCs can bring him down though. They just need to be careful of his 4 attack nova. But a lvl 3 fighter should be able to tank it.
A party of lvl 5 PCs will eventually kill him with ease. A party of 4 fighters are just as dangerous as a party of 4 wizards. 4 attacks of fokus fire from four longbows is equally effective as 4 times 4 magic missiles, and even 4 fireballs may not be more dangerous if the party spreads out a bit.

 

[Ichneumon]

CR, huh. Definitely a can of annelids that are slimy & toothed at both ends.

But I'll treat it much as I did its namesake in 3rd: use it as a rough guide at first, then jilt it to follow my instincts.

 

[GX.Sigma]

So to back it up with numbers:

Wizard 5: CR 5, xp 1000
Fighter 5: CR 3, XP 1000.

I don't think that's the case. Based on what Rodney said on Twitter, CR will be linked to XP (I'm assuming that means all CR 1 creatures are worth 100 xp, all CR 2 creatures are worth 350 xp, yadda yadda, whatever the actual numbers are). An encounter with a full-strength Wizard will be more of a challenge than an encounter with a Fighter, so it'll be a higher CR and award more XP.

What's interesting is that if that same NPC wizard has to stretch those resources across multiple encounters, it will have a different CR in each encounter. In Ravenloft, for example, the first time the characters meet Strahd, he can cast cloudkill and fireball out the wazoo, so that's a CR 8 encounter or whatever. Later, he's used up those spells, and he just has some low-level magic missiles, so it's not the same level of challenge. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much.

 

[pemerton]

What's interesting is that if that same NPC wizard has to stretch those resources across multiple encounters, it will have a different CR in each encounter. In Ravenloft, for example, the first time the characters meet Strahd, he can cast cloudkill and fireball out the wazoo, so that's a CR 8 encounter or whatever. Later, he's used up those spells, and he just has some low-level magic missiles, so it's not the same level of challenge.

If they give encounter-building tools to this level of sophistication that would be a very good thing, in my view.

 

[GX.Sigma]

If they give encounter-building tools to this level of sophistication that would be a very good thing, in my view.

Well, I don't think a spellcaster in the monster manual will say "CR 3 (CR 1 if 3rd and 4th level spells are used up)," if that's what you mean. But since the system is built around expected damage output, defenses, HP, etc., there's no reason you can't recalculate the creature's CR based on the situation.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think that's the case. Based on what Rodney said on Twitter, CR will be linked to XP (I'm assuming that means all CR 1 creatures are worth 100 xp, all CR 2 creatures are worth 350 xp, yadda yadda, whatever the actual numbers are). An encounter with a full-strength Wizard will be more of a challenge than an encounter with a Fighter, so it'll be a higher CR and award more XP.

What's interesting is that if that same NPC wizard has to stretch those resources across multiple encounters, it will have a different CR in each encounter. In Ravenloft, for example, the first time the characters meet Strahd, he can cast cloudkill and fireball out the wazoo, so that's a CR 8 encounter or whatever. Later, he's used up those spells, and he just has some low-level magic missiles, so it's not the same level of challenge. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much.

Yeah, I do have to agree with you. I wrote that before I wrote my statement. Although I do think, that what I posted would have made sense too. But they went for something different. No problem.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think that's the case. Based on what Rodney said on Twitter, CR will be linked to XP (I'm assuming that means all CR 1 creatures are worth 100 xp, all CR 2 creatures are worth 350 xp, yadda yadda, whatever the actual numbers are). An encounter with a full-strength Wizard will be more of a challenge than an encounter with a Fighter, so it'll be a higher CR and award more XP.

I also think this is the likely case.

Back to 3e, we had CR for encounter building. Only one number to completely evaluate a monster.

One problem with that was that you needed to calculate XP by matching the CR with the level of the PCs. A lot of people hated doing this calculation, and wanted to go back to just having plain XP, ready to give to the PC as reward.

Another problem was that CR of multiple creatures didn't add up in a simple way when mixing monsters of different CR, so while a solo monster's CR was not a problem (unless the provided CR was off since the start), a battle with many monsters might be often over/underestimated in difficulty in 3e.

It seems to me that they have reintroduced CR but this time alongside fixed XP (i.e. XP that do not depend on the PC level) to get altogether a better method to evaluate the difficulty of single monsters in an encounter and the encounter as a whole.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The big takeaway is this:

PC's and NPC's are different.

As a player, what determines balance is my overall experience over the course of multiple encounters and adventures relative to the rest of the party.

As a monster, what determines balance is how close I can come to a TPK in one encounter.

These are different measures, different numbers, different values. One number will not represent both things. Nova potential drives up CR as a monster, because that's a lot to unleash in one encounter, but it doesn't necessarily affect the balance between party members on the player's side, since there are multiple encounters between long rests, and nova-ing in one is going to weaken you for the others (and let other classes take the spotlight).

When players are comparing their own characters and deriving CR values for them as if they were monsters, what they're really doing is comparing nova potential: big booms are worth more in one encounter. This doesn't tell you much about what it's like to play them in multi-encounter adventures, though.

So if your 3rd level fighter is all "Heh, if I faught the party, I'd be CR 9!", what he's really saying is that in one encounter, he can pump out enough damage to threaten a level 9 party. Of course, this doesn't mean he's not the equal to the other 3rd level characters in the party -- if your 3rd level thief is all "Aww, I'm only CR 4," that just means she doesn't have the spike potential. As PC's, they can still be balanced because while the 3rd level fighter might wipe the floor with a typical CR 3 monster, in the next encounter, they might not. And your thief will.

 

[keterys]

I wonder whether you have characters (ex: wizard) who are CR 9 for one encounter, CR 6 for a second, CR 2 the rest of the time alongside CR 5s every encounter (ex: rogue). Or if it's more like 9, 6, 2 alongside 3s.

Not that I'm sure I'm happy with either result, but one feels more problematic than the other.