CR, DR and dead heroes...

[Dr. Zoom]

A paladin was fighting a devil and he didn't cast bless weapon to circumvent its DR and autoconfirm crits? WTF?

Bless Weapon does not bypass all DR. It bypasses DR as if it were a +1 weapon. This has been clarified recently by the sage in Sage Advice.

 

[jeffwik]

I retract my WTF then.

Stupid sage.

 

[hammymchamham]

Stupid sage.

Why? its what the spell says. Granted, it says it very poorly

 

[jeffwik]

Why? its what the spell says. Granted, it says it very poorly

I can see how you think that, but I disagree.

Bless Weapon
Transmutation
Level: Pal 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
All critical rolls against evil foes are automatically successful. The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus. Also, the weapon is considered blessed, which means it has special effects on certain creatures. Individual arrows or bolts can be transmuted, but affected projectile weapons (such as bows) don't confer the benefit to the projectiles they shoot.
This transmutation can't affect any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits.

"The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" means "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" not "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus." To say "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" you'd have to say "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures, and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures, as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus." With commas.

Plus it goes from being a cool paladin-only spell to a version of Magic Weapon that trades an actual +1 to hit and damage for autoconfirm on critical hits, which is weaker than Magic Weapon much of the time. I've always thought of Bless Weapon as the signature paladin spell, deliberately slightly overpowered.

 

[Vocenoctum]

"The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" means "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" not "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus." To say "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus and the weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus" you'd have to say "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures, and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures, as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus." With commas.

Actually, if you wanted it to say what you want it to say, would be "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures. It also is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enhancement bonus."

But, it doesn't say that either. It's not well laid out, but then, a +1 bonus doesn't strike incorporeal creatures any better than any magic weapon, so specifying that part as being +1 seems redundant.

 

[Brista]

Side Note: I believe the whole "We want the cool abilities" thing began, when they met the gravewight Saithnar in "The Standing Stones". He and the paladin had a honor duel [not to the death] and the party was impressed by the high damage output of the +1 frost greatsword of the undead. When the paladin then found Sunrazor with its flaming ability in the following adventure... You can figure out the rest.

With an average of +3.5 damage frost and so on are in general more powerful than an extra level of enhancement

Without meaning to sound heartless, your group have had a lesson in the value of enhancement bonus - they did rather put all their eggs in one basket assembling a collection that can slaughter creatures without damage reduction but fail against things like this devil

It seems to me that the game introduces hard to hit monsters very early and very deliberately. Shadows for instance are the bane of low level characters

The problems were the
- length of time they took to kill it which they could have solved with better tactics and/or better choice of items and perhaps spells.
- poor play, the missed lay of hands, the ganging up on the mount leaving one character alone against a CR9 monster for what proved to be too long. (There was some good play - the use of trip for instance)
- the use of a killer spell. Well Phantasmal Killer is an appropriate spell to hit a level 8-9 party with. They can cast it, after all. Had it been Power Word Kill it might be unfair


The real issues is did they learn anything that would make them play better and do they enjoy your games? I am convinced that giving them the occasional tough challenge like this one will keep them coming back for more. If you allow too much player democracy then your games will start to become a series of exp and item runs rather than a genuinely absorbing challenge

One last suggestion: make what they achieved have significant effects in the campaign if possible - NPC reactions and so on. It was a very impressive victory even at the cost

 

[Hejdun]

The DR of the devil made it too tough and his abilities and elemental immunities were too powerful.

The issue of DR was completely and 100% the party's fault. They purposely bought elemental +1 weapons instead of +2 weapons because they obviously liked the +1d6 damage a whole lot more than the +1 damage. They have no reason to whine when they can't pierce +2 DR. Heck, they should have been smart enough to prepare some GMWs for the off-chance that they would encounter a DR +2 monster.

In short, the party's lack of foresightedness killed the party, not the DM.

(p.s. I personally think the Sage's call is a bunch of bull, but that's just me. It's not like our group even cares about his 'advice' anymore.)

 

[Gizzard]

How to defeat a Narzugon with our party? How to defeat a Narzugon without someone who has Greater Magic Weapon or when the cleric has it not prepared?

My first thought is that I dont see much mention of the Illusionist in the battle. Everyone runs full ahead and starts swinging into the teeth of DR20/+2, but where is the non-Buff magic? Has no one noticed that 2/3rds of the fatalities were from the Phantasmal Killer? "Oh woe is us, if only we had someone in our party who could cast Phantasmal Killer we might have defeated the Narzugon. Woe." ;-)

The same with the level 8 Cleric. I'm not asking for him to have Dismissal prepared, but surely there must have been something useful to do besides Heal the wounded. Basically, some monsters are going to be resistant to physical attacks, some are going to be resistant to magical attack, and some are going to be good against both, unfortunately. But finding your enemies weakness and exploiting it - especially at the level your characters are - is key to survival. Run 'N Hack works on Orcs, but not on Devils.

 

[EntropyDecay]

My first thought is that I dont see much mention of the Illusionist in the battle. Everyone runs full ahead and starts swinging into the teeth of DR20/+2, but where is the non-Buff magic? Has no one noticed that 2/3rds of the fatalities were from the Phantasmal Killer? "Oh woe is us, if only we had someone in our party who could cast Phantasmal Killer we might have defeated the Narzugon. Woe." ;-)

The Illusionist casted the following spells during the fight (in same order as listed):
- Displacement on Psychic Warrior
- Displacement on Cleric
- Shocking Grasp on himself (shared with familiar), he and his familiar attacked the fiendish dire boar in the next round with this spell (They did enough damage to the boar to kill it)
- then he used a round to heal his familiar with a potion (it was hit by the Narzugon), I decided that he had to use a full round action because of the special circumstances (potionflasks are not produced to fit for weasel mouths)
- casted Melf's Acid Arrow on Narzugon for no damage (acid resistance)
Not really effective in this combat I think.

The same with the level 8 Cleric. I'm not asking for him to have Dismissal prepared, but surely there must have been something useful to do besides Heal the wounded. Basically, some monsters are going to be resistant to physical attacks, some are going to be resistant to magical attack, and some are going to be good against both, unfortunately. But finding your enemies weakness and exploiting it - especially at the level your characters are - is key to survival. Run 'N Hack works on Orcs, but not on Devils.

The cleric never healed the wounded in this combat. The player sees his cleric of Kord more as a greatsword fighter and uses only strength & constitution buffs and sometimes Divination.
Just remembered:
The player was totally angered when he casted Hold Person on the flesh golem and I replied that the magic had no effect on it. I have never before seen a spell so miscast:
- Golem was immune to magic
- Target of Hold Person must be Humanoid
- Spell is mind affecting
Oh, and he received the following answer from his god before he entered the tower (aka he casted divination): "Dead flesh, magically made alive, immune to Boccob's gift." (His question was: "What will we encounter when we enter the tower". Waiting behind the entrance door was the flesh golem.)

Chris

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think it's fairly clear that, with a couple of exceptions, the party played extremely poorly.

It also sounds like (apart from the illusionist), they're not so much a party as a group of people. ie - there wasn't much in the way of group tactics, beyond the psywar tripping the devil, or the illusionist buffing people. Is this about right?

Finally, I hate to say it, but a group with no healing is going to have some serious troubles. Reduced healing, I can understand. Being reluctant to use slots to heal, I can understand. Not healing someone who's practically dead (the paladin) is just being silly.

The first non+ enchantment I get on a weapon (assuming I get to choose it) is going to be sure striking. The next one will be ghost touch. Damage is nice, but being totally unable to hurt your opponent seriously outweighs the advantages of an elemental weapon.

It sounds like your party really don't know their own powers, or the advantages and disadvantages of their choices. Would you say that a large proportion of your group has a tenuous grasp on the rules? If that's the case, and they're unwilling to invest their time, perhaps you should give them some appropriate strategy tips. Telling them the disadvantages of elemental weapons in the first place would possibly have encouraged one or more of them to run with +2 instead of +1, cold. ie - the wizard they employ to enchant the thing says "All these guys, coming in, asking for the elemental enchantments... it's flashy, it looks cool, it makes your opponents burn to a crisp. Give me a +2 weapon any day. You never know when you'll meet a devil...". After all, his business depends on customer satisfaction. If his weapons fail, his customers die, and he loses business. Good advice means they rake in more treasure, and meet more powerful foes, and need better weapons.