CR for Outsiders

[Li Shenron]

I have read in other threads a lot of people complaining about the correctness of CRs, in particular for outsiders. I would like to write down a long adventure (possibly taking a party of 5th-8th level characters up to about 15th) with planar creatures, so before I choose the various creatures, could you help me pinpoint which CRs are in your opinion blatantly wrong in representing the powers of the monsters, rules-wise?

Specifically, I will use the classic Celestials, Devils and Demons (including the templates), and maybe Slaadi and Inevitables. I own MM, MM2 and MotP.

Please notice that I don't necessarily wish to ask you a correction to those CRs, because after all it's not so important to me to have an EXACT CR... just to know which in your opinion are the outsiders definitely underpowered or definitely overpowered for their given CR (let's say, the ones which deserve at least +3 or -3, and of course which direction ).

Thanks!

 

[SpikeyFreak]

The only one that I've used that made me think "WTF" was the bebilith. Compare it to the Vrock and see which you think is tougher.

I ran an adventure where the blood war had bled into the prime and the players (3 high-powered level 9 characters) were fighting Tanar'ri and Baatezu, and they wiped the floor with some Vrocks (CR 13 - too high IMO), several Hamatulas at the same time (CR 8), and a Cornugan (CR 10), but they had to flee from the Bebilith (CR 9) lest it consume them all (mainly because of its DR 30/+3 and poison).

--Abysmal Spikey

 

[Mordane76]

The other thing about the Bebilith is that forsaken Rend ability; I had a group come up against Bebiliths as a summoned monster, because I looked to see what I could summon as a high-level cleric (party had 8-12th level PCs). So the spell summoned four Bebilith, which I, looking at their CR, figured would be a difficult encounter for the party, and one person might die -- but this was a big encounter, and the last before the cleric himself, so I let the dice fly.


If the party had not been able to lock the bebiliths in a room with doors too small for the creatures to follow them, they would have been hopelessly slaughtered. The CR is horribly understated on bebiliths.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

If the party had not been able to lock the bebiliths in a room with doors too small for the creatures to follow them, they would have been hopelessly slaughtered. The CR is horribly understated on bebiliths.

Heh, that's exaclty the same thing that happened to my Bebilith.

--Coincidental Spikey

 

[Mordane76]

Most of the other planar creatures I've used seem pretty on par, however. Just looking at the numbers, I think succubi might be a little underpowered, and I haven't used any Vrock yet (thank God).

The little demons/devils are cake, but some of the ones from the alternate WotC sources are pretty wicked, like Jovacs from MM2.

 

[hammymchamham]

what are the wasp looking things from MM2? They're like a cr 3, they're pretty nasty.

 

[Mordane76]

The advespa devils? Yep... CR 3, fairly low key -- they do have good movement rates, baatezu traits, DR, regeneration, poison, and SR, but not horribly bright.

MM2 has a lot of good demons/devils/yugoloths in it.

 

[coyote6]

Is the malebranche in MM2 or BoVD? Whichever book, it deserves at least a nomination for the Most Under CR'd Critter Award.

 

[hammymchamham]

yeah, regeneration, acid resistance 20. How many 3rd level charecters can do 21+ poitns of acid damage in one round?

 

[Mordane76]

The malebranche devil is in MM2. A HUGE 16HD monster with a CR of 9?!

It has average AC, good movement rates, high BAB, with baatezu traits, DR, regeneration, and moderate/low SR. It's also loaded with crunchy combat feats and good skills...


Hammy: But a lot of 3rd level characters have access to a +1 weapon, so the DR and regeneration is kinda shot, because blessed and/or +1 weapons also deal normal damage to it.