CR for this ooze

[Quasqueton]

What is this creature’s CR?

The creature below is built off the black pudding (CR 7) with the fiendish template (+2 CR). Changes I made are:

-- Instead of making a slam attack and then starting a grapple, this creature moves into the victim’s area (provoking an AoO) and begins the grapple.

-- Dropped reach from 10’ to 0’ (must envelope an opponent rather than reach out and pummel).

-- Increased grapple check from +18 to +28 (added +10 for being morphable – how do you out-wrestle a freakin’ blob?)*

-- Instead of immunity to slashing and piercing weapons (which split the pudding into more puddings), I made it immune to bludgeoning (how do you smash an ooze?), take minimum damage from piercing, and regular damage from slashing. Also, any victim grappled inside the ooze takes half the weapon damage (figured normally, regardless of how much the ooze itself takes).

FIENDISH BLACK OOZE
NE Huge ooze (extraplanar)
Senses blind, blindsight 60’
Languages --
Init -5

AC 3, touch 3, flat-footed 3
HP 115 (10 HD) DR 5/magic
Immune bludgeoning damage, acid, poison, sleep, polymorph, stunning, crits, flanking, sight and mind effects
Resistance SR 15; cold 10, fire 10; minimum damage from piercing; normal damage from slashing
Fort +9, Ref -2, Will -2

Speed land 20’ (4 squares), climb 20’ (4 squares)
Attack Envelope move into target’s space (provoking AoO) then
Grapple +28 (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)

Space 15’; Reach 0’
Base Atk +7; Grp +28
Atk Options smite good +10 damage
Special Actions --

Abilities Str 17+3, Dex 1-5, Con 22+6, Int --, Wis 1-5, Cha 1-5
SQ mindless
Feats --
Skills Climb +11
Possessions --


A black ooze attacks by moving into prey’s space, grabbing, and squeezing their prey.

Constrict (Ex): If the ooze wins a grapple attack, it automatically deals grapple and acid damage.

Acid (Ex): The creature secretes a digestive acid. Armor and clothing take 2d6 points of acid damage unless they succeed on DC 21 Reflex saves (with a –4 penalty on the roll). A manufactured weapon that strikes a black ooze also takes the acid damage unless it succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. Striking the creature with a natural weapon also results in damage to the attacker unless they succeed on a DC 21 Reflex save.

Weapon Immunity (Ex): Bludgeoning weapons do no damage, piercing weapons do minimal damage (roll of 1 on any weapon damage dice), and normal damage from slashing weapons. But if it has grappled an opponent, any weapon attacks against the pudding deals half normal damage to the grappled victim.

Blindsight (Ex): An ooze’s entire body is a primitive sensory organ that can ascertain prey by scent and vibration within 60 feet. It does not need to make Spot checks for hidden items or creatures within 60 feet.

Ooze Traits:
—Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
—Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
—Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.

The standard black pudding for comparison:

BLACK PUDDING
Black Pudding
Huge Ooze
Hit Dice: 10d10+60 (115 hp)
Initiative: –5
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 3 (–2 size, –5 Dex), touch 3, flat-footed 3
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+18
Attack: Slam +8 melee (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)
Full Attack: Slam +8 melee (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid, constrict 2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., split, ooze traits
Saves: Fort +9, Ref –2, Will –2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: Climb +11
Feats: —
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Huge); 16–30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

The typical black pudding measures 15 feet across and 2 feet thick. It weighs about 18,000 pounds.
Combat
A black pudding attacks by grabbing and squeezing their prey.
Blindsight (Ex): An ooze’s entire body is a primitive sensory organ that can ascertain prey by scent and vibration within 60 feet.

Acid (Ex): The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage, and the opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on DC 21 Reflex saves. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a black pudding also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
The pudding’s acidic touch deals 21 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.

Constrict (Ex): A black pudding deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor take a –4 penalty on Reflex saves against the acid.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a black pudding must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

Skills: A black pudding has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

The party this will go up against are:

human paladin 11 (with dire wolf special mount)
human ranger 11 (with heavy horse companion)
halfling sorcerer 11 (with pseudodragon familiar)
human cleric 9

The encounter will be in a 30’x30’ room with two doors. The ooze will be hiding under a lair of mud on the floor (the whole dungeon is covered in mud).

I’d appreciate help with nailing down the CR. Also feel free to give advice/suggestions/warnings on this encounter.

* The paladin’s dire wolf has a +19 grapple check, and the sorcerer’s evard’s black tentacles has a +19 grapple check [give or take a point]. Knowing these numbers, I can’t understand how a Huge ooze has only a +18 grapple check.

Quasqueton

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'd place it at a CR 11. An extremely annoying 11.

* The paladin’s dire wolf has a +19 grapple check, and the sorcerer’s evard’s black tentacles has a +19 grapple check [give or take a point]. Knowing these numbers, I can’t understand how a Huge ooze has only a +18 grapple check.

Because it has a puny +3 strength bonus. By contrast the non-advanced dire wolf has a +7 Str and the tentacles have a +4 with a BAB equal to the caster's level.

That said, a +18 is enough to reliably grapple level 7 characters (whose grapples top out at +18, for the raging half-orc wrestler) that will have an average grapple check of +3 to +12 depending upon class. Remember, a +4 edge on an opposed check means that you'll win about 80% of the time; the 80% of checks that you don't automatically win, he still has to roll 5 higher than you.
I expect this beast you've created to outgrapple the wolf or tentacles about 90% of the time, and outgrapple the characters even more frequently. If they don't have freedom of movement then getting engulfed will be fatal.

 

[Quasqueton]

Would dropping the grapple check mod back down to 18 lower your estimated CR?

Quasqueton

 

[Bad Paper]

uh. yeah, 11 or thereabouts.

I disagree with increasing the grapple check so drastically. This thing is weak and lacks things with which to grapple: tentacles, jaws, hands.

Giving half damage to grappled victims makes sense for something smaller like a cloaker, but if this thing is huge, I cannot see how me hacking it over here gives damage to someone fifteen feet away. I would drop or alter this mechanic.

Your weapon-type adjustments are bizarre. I see no logic for immunity to bludgeoning. Think about the gibbering mouther's DR 5/bludgeoning, and compare it to the zombie's DR 5/slashing. Is this thing more like a mass of GM flesh or a mass of Z stringy muscle? I guess the piercing thing is OK. Maybe make it something cool like DR 5/magic, wood, and bludgeoning. Who's going to beat it with a stick?

I would drop the racial grapple modifier (for that is what that +10 is) and rethink the weapon-type stuff. Since you changed its attack mode to essentially mimic a swarm, maybe read up on the various swarms' damage reduction/weapon-type modifiers.

If you did these things, then its CR drops to 9 or 10. Maybe keep the racial grapple modifier (as an offset to the free-AoO "swarm" mechanic) at +4 (bonus feat, anyone?). I would shoot to make this thing a CR10.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Would dropping the grapple check mod back down to 18 lower your estimated CR?

It surely would. An annoying 10; tough to kill, can't really go toe-to-toe but not likely deadly unless things just go badly.

I like your engulf idea, it's pretty fun. Combine it with Improved Grapple as a bonus feat (which monsters don't need the prereqs for) and you'd have a fun encounter with a huge ooze that has a grapple of +22 (respectable, even when the PCs Enlarge Person) and simply blobs over the things it tries to eat.
Mean, interesting, and the energy resistances and DR can make it challenging to kill.

Also, later on you can use rooms full of these guys as a semi-plot device to tell your players, "Stop, turn around and go somewhere else."