Craft or Profession?

der_kluge

Adventurer
Was thinking about certain skills, and I was unable to figure out where they would belong.

For example:
Cooper - Craft or Profession?
Baker - Craft or Profession?
Brewer - Craft or Profession?
Artist - Craft, Perform, or Profession?
Sculptor - Craft or Profession?
Mason - Craft or Profession (include Sculptor??)


Furthermore, in general, how detailed on a skill do you go? Like, if I have a character that grew up raising sheep, "Profession (Farming) doesn't really seem appropriate since sheep are herded, and sheared. They aren't milked, or slaughtered, so there would be a lot about shepherding that would be different from other kinds of "farming". Furthermore, would you lump it all into "Farming" or would you break it out "Farming" versus "Animal Husbandry"?

These are the professions I have. I tried not to get *too* low-level, but figured this would cover most things.

Apothecary
Artist
Baker
Bartender
Beautician
Bee-Keeper
Bookbinder
Butcher
Carpenter
Cobbler
Cooper
Farmer
Fisherman
Herbalist
Lapidary (gem cutter)
Locksmith
Lumberjack
Mason
Merchant
Miller
Miner
Navigator
Scribe
Seaman
Tailor
Tanner
Weaver


My Craft() skill list (seems ridiculously low)
Alchemy
Armorsmithing
Bowyer/Fletcher
Brewing
Pottery
Weaponsmithing
Trapmaking
 

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Basically, anything that involves making something should be a craft. It's Craft (cobblery), not Profession (cobbler). Profession is more for professions that don't directly involve making something, or taking care of something that makes itself - innkeeper, farming, and the like.
 

Anything that produces finished goods should be a Craft. E.g. - leatherworking, any form of smithing, bowmaking (boying sounds wrong), fletching, etc.

Anything that makes raw materials or provides a service should be a profession. E.g. - tanning, butchering, forgery, innkeeper, weaving, apothocary, etc.
 

die_kluge said:
Was thinking about certain skills, and I was unable to figure out where they would belong.

For example:
Cooper - Craft or Profession?

Craft. A cooper makes barrels, wheels, etc.

Baker - Craft or Profession?

Craft. A baker makes ... well ... baked goods.

Brewer - Craft or Profession?

Craft. A brewer makes alcoholic beverages.

Artist - Craft, Perform, or Profession?

I'd say, Perform. Art is to the eye as music is to the ear, IMO.

Sculptor - Craft or Profession?

Craft. Not only is this a case of making something (sculptures, states, and carvings), but the rules for making Golems, for example, specifically name "Craft (Scultping)" ...

Mason - Craft or Profession (include Sculptor??)

Craft. Laying bricks, stone, etc is NOT the same as sculpting, the two professions owuld be different (but related, many masons will take some sculpting (if only to knock off rough bits and make the blocks they;re laying fit better), and many sculptors will take some ranks in masonry (so as to know what they can and can't do, when producing sculptures and carvings for a building).


Furthermore, in general, how detailed on a skill do you go? Like, if I have a character that grew up raising sheep, "Profession (Farming) doesn't really seem appropriate since sheep are herded, and sheared.

Try "Profession (Shepherd)". Such a person would also likely have decent ranks in Handle Animal, but the profession woudl cover stuff the Animal Handling didn't -- shearing them, for example. The pair woudl be good for a synergy bonus when the animals in question are sheep, or very similar to them (some goats can bear wool, for example).

These are the professions I have. I tried not to get *too* low-level, but figured this would cover most things.

Apothecary
Artist
Baker

All Crafts.

And specifically: Apothecary cures and dries herbs, as well as preparing pre-mixed herbal remedies. An actual apothecary woudl prbably have Profession (Herbalist) and Craft (Apothecary), both. Even a touch fo Craft (alchemy) would not be unlikely.

Bartender
Beautician
Bee-Keeper

I agree. Bee-Keeping would be similar to Profession (Shepherd), but for, well ... bees.

Bookbinder

In a medieval economy, not likely to find someone who only binds the books. Such a person would also be part scribe -- and would probably be manufacturing the pages and other parts. I'd call this one "Craft (Scribe)", oddly enough.

I know some people might say "but scribes just write things, that's not a craft!" Well, that's not true. CLERKS "just write things" ... true scribes make the INK, the PAPER,e ven the PENS. All from scratch, as likely as not.


Agreed. Chopping carcasses up into specific little bits, isn't MAKING anything.

Carpenter
Cobbler
Cooper

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Should each be a Craft skill. Carpenters take wood (and sometimes nails) and make things ... youknow, like entire buildings! Cobblers make shoes, and coopers make barrels and such.

Farmer
Fisherman
Herbalist

I agree.

Lapidary (gem cutter)
Locksmith

Lapidary might go either way, but I'd tend to classify it as a craft. A lapidary takes a raw stone -- a basic pretty rock -- and makes an extraordinary jewel out of it. True jewelers are also likely to have multiple crafts. Whitesmith (works in white metals -- silver, tin, etc), Goldsmith (self-explanatory), and the like.

Locksmiths make locks, and keys. Pretty much, if "smith" is in there, it's a craft skill.

Lumberjack

Agreed.


Masons build things; to me, that says craft. If you assign a wall a Craft DC, then it's Craft (Mason) that you'll roll to make it, if the wallis stone anyway.

Merchant
Miller
Miner
Navigator

Agreed.


See my comments above on what a scribe REALLY does. You're probably thinking more of "Clerk", here -- which would be a profession.


Agreed.

Tailor
Tanner
Weaver

No, these are crafts. Tailors make clothing; Tanners make leather; Weavers make cloth (and rugs, and tapestries).


My Craft() skill list (seems ridiculously low)
Alchemy
Armorsmithing
Bowyer/Fletcher
Brewing
Pottery
Weaponsmithing
Trapmaking

Agreed. Basically, anything you can buy which is not a SERVICE, involves a craft skill at least ONCE in it's manufacture. Many of them, several times. Take a suit of clothing; first, the Weaver makes the cloth, and dyes it. Meanwhile, someone else is making and dyeing thread. Meanwhile, a needlemaker is makng various sewing needles.

The tailor or seamstress (same job, different gender for the person doing it) takes all three, and probably more besides, and assembles them into various articles of clothing.

So, that's four craft skills involved in making clothes, taken from the raw materials stage. Probably five, since a needlemaker will likely buy proper-grade steel from a blacksmith (or a foundry, if there is one), or from someone who DID buy it from one of those two sources. Assuming the needles are steel, and not copper or brass, of course.
 

Baking is a craft. However does he just back or does he also sell his good and hangle over price etc.

If he just bakes and sells at a standard price then I would say craft baking.

If he bakes goods and takes care of the business of hageling then I would say he should have craft (baker) and profession (shopkeep)
 

Good lord.

Well, in general, I agree with most of that interpretation. I can see that Profession (merchant) would definitely be a requirement for all these guys like Cooper, and Baker, and candlestickmaker. So, it would be one thing to make an item, but then you still have to operate a storefront and sell to customers, etc. That's where profession(merchant) would come in.

A Craft skill should follow several rules - firstly, the craft skill should actually make sense when applied to the construction of whatever it is we're talking about, and secondly, does a masterwork version of the thing we're talking about make any sense?

But let's look closer at some of these:

Apothecary - I probably would rule that this was actually a combination of things, as it is probably too broad a classification. It's comprised of craft(alchemy) and profession(herbalist) among maybe a few knowledge() skills.

Artist - I really do not see this as a craft(). For starters, the craft() rules *completely* break down when talking about art. Art doesn't sell based on the raw materials used to create it. When was the last piece of art you bought and said, "I won't pay you more than $50 for that; there can't be that much paint there, and that canvas isn't worth a penny over $30!" It doesn't work like that. I could see this as either Perform(Artist) or Profession(Artist), and am inclined to go with the latter, since you're not really performing when you make art. It's also not really Wis based, which is why I'm not sure Profession works very well, either. It really needs to be a completely separate skill, I think, that would be Dex-based.

Baker - I don't have a problem with this being a Craft() skill, but I'm just not sure what a masterwork loaf of bread would taste like. And would it cost 150gp and 1 copper? I think this makes more sense as a profession. "What do you do for a living?" "I'm a baker." Not - "what do you create? "I create baked goods." These guys just take dough and bake it. They're not really creating anything. They're transforming.

Bartender - Definitely profession, but bartenders make mixed drinks. It's certainly making something from raw materials, so it fits the description of craft(). When I make a Tom Collins, I pour gin, Tom Collin's mix, and club soda all together, and then stir. That's a craft, right? ;)

Brewing - now this would be a craft, since they would take grapes, or wheat, or barley, or honey, and whatever, and turn it into beer, mead, or wine.

Beautician - definitely profession. No problems there.

Bee-Keeper - Profession.

Bookbinder - Bookbinders don't make paper, they just take paper and use them to make books with. I'm also not certain that they'd be part scribe. Certainly they would work with a scribe who would write the pages, but I think a separate person would then take the pages and bind them into a book. Craft? I doubt it, it's so mundane. I have a hard time seeing this as a craft. Again, what would a masterwork book look like? I still say profession on this one.

Butcher - Profession.

Carpenter - Profession. I suppose one could argue for Craft() here but the rules would be ridiculous. For starters, if I make a house that costs 1,000gp would the same house as a masterwork house cost 1,150gp? I could see craft(woodworking) for people that make wood sculptures, and furniture. A MW fife would come from someone with many ranks in craft(woodworking). But making a house doesn't really require any finesse. Volunteers help build houses for people in need, and those programs utilize people without any carpentry skill. So, that strikes me as being wis based (profession), not int based (craft).

Cobbler - Craft. Fits all the rules, raw materials, and I could buy really nice, masterwork boots.

Cooper - Craft. Actually, I've heard that making a barrel is a lot more difficult than one thinks.

Farmer - Profession.

Fisherman - Profession.

Herbalist - Profession.

Lapidary (gem cutter) - Profession. Lapidaries don't make anything. They just cut gems. The Craft() rules would totally break down here. Gems costs hundreds of gold, and according to the craft() rules, should take weeks to create. Cutting a gem takes an hour at best. Craft wouldn't work. You also can't create a masterwork gem. You either cut it correctly, or you don't. You can't improve it.

Locksmith - Craft. That makes sense. There are certainly masterwork locks in the game.

Lumberjack - Profession.

Mason - I suppose I don't have a problem with this being a craft skill, but I'm not sure what a masterwork brick would look like. They also don't take any raw materials and create something from it, unless the raw materials are stones, and the final product is a castle, which doesn't make much sense. Masons just make bricks. Laborers probably actually lay the stone. The jury is still out on this one. I don't know enough about masons to feel strongly one way or the other on this one. It would probably never come up in a game anyway, and even if it did, it would be for role-playing reasons, as I doubt anyone would try to make a brick. I'm inclined to just go with profession on this one. Now, sculpter would be a craft(). Since, they could make stone statues.

Merchant - Profession.

Miller - Profession.

Miner - Profession.

Navigator - Profession.

Scribe - Profession. They don't create anything in the purest sense. A scribe just copies text from one page to another. Actually, profession as a wisdom-based skill probably doesn't make much sense here, but a dex-based skill does. I would be inclined to make this a separate Dex-based skill.

Seaman - Profession.

Tailor/Seamstress - I suppose this could be a craft, because I guess you could get finely made (masterwork) clothes created. The masterwork rules don't make much sense here, though, and I have my own version which makes more sense, anyway. This is kind of like carpenter in that if you make furniture or sculpture, it's definitely a craft, but if it's a house it's probably a profession. To me, if you make a fine suit or a fancy dress, that's probably a craft(), but if you just make tunics, or blankets, that might be a profession. Well, I suppose it could be a craft with a really low DC. Eh, craft I suppose.

Tanner - Again, this is kind of like lapidary. Tanners just transform the skin into leather, they don't really *make* leather. When you purchase masterwork leather, does that come from a tanner, or from a leatherworker? My guess is the latter - so Leatherworking is a craft skill, and a leatherworker takes leather pieces and makes leather armor, or backpacks, or waterskins, or whatever. Tanners just transform skins into leather. By a strict reading of the rules, masterwork leather armor should cost 300+gp because to make MW leather armor would require starting with MW leather strips from the tanner, which would cost 150gp, and then the leatherworker would have to add his own 150gp to transform that into MW armor, and thus would cost 300+gp. Since that doesn't happen, it seems to me that a tanner can't make MW raw leather. The leather might be good quality or poor quality, but that isn't based on the work that the tanner did. I'm inclined to leave this as a profession.

Weaver - I suppose I don't really have a problem with this being a craft.
 
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don't forget that the default setting is gothic europe and indead most of these jobs fit into gothic europe.

So the seamstress isn't making plain old tunics - those are made at home the professional is making clothes for the aristocracy. Same with a metal worker. People make their own horseshoes the metal worker is making swords and armor and stuff like that.
 

die_kluge said:
A Craft skill should follow several rules - firstly, the craft skill should actually make sense when applied to the construction of whatever it is we're talking about, and secondly, does a masterwork version of the thing we're talking about make any sense?

I don't think everything you can craft should neccessarily HAVE amasterwork version. Are there masterwork bags of Tanglefoot? Nope, yet Craft (alchemy) is there ...

It doesn't work like that. I could see this as either Perform(Artist) or Profession(Artist), and am inclined to go with the latter, since you're not really performing when you make art. It's also not really Wis based, which is why I'm not sure Profession works very well, either. It really needs to be a completely separate skill, I think, that would be Dex-based.

"Anyone" can paint a technically perfect landscape. Artists do more than that. It's not one's dexterity that matters, it's one's ability to express the meaning and emotion of a scene through the visual medium that counts. Art is a performance -- it's just one you conduct beforehand, and can display repeatedly.

Is music less of a performance when a tape recorder is present?

Baker - I don't have a problem with this being a Craft() skill, but I'm just not sure what a masterwork loaf of bread would taste like. And would it cost 150gp and 1 copper? I think this makes more sense as a profession. "What do you do for a living?" "I'm a baker." Not - "what do you create? "I create baked goods." These guys just take dough and bake it. They're not really creating anything. They're transforming.

Masterwork bread doesn't have to taste different from regular bread -- but that ten-foot-long, five-foot-high, exquisitely-detailed bread-sculpture (stuffed with meats, ofc) of a DRAGON at His Majesty's table at the Feast of Knights is DEFINITELY a masterwork item, n'est-ce pas?

Bookbinder - Bookbinders don't make paper, they just take paper and use them to make books with. I'm also not certain that they'd be part scribe. Certainly they would work with a scribe who would write the pages, but I think a separate person would then take the pages and bind them into a book. Craft? I doubt it, it's so mundane. I have a hard time seeing this as a craft. Again, what would a masterwork book look like? I still say profession on this one.

We're talking medieval here. You're overspecialising, and turning the manufacture of a book into an assembly-line process. The same man, woman, or whatever probably makes the paper, does the writing by hand, and binds it into a book.

Or his apprentices do some of the steps. *shrug*

Carpenter - Profession. I suppose one could argue for Craft() here but the rules would be ridiculous. For starters, if I make a house that costs 1,000gp would the same house as a masterwork house cost 1,150gp?

You're really stuck on "craft means you can make masterwork", aren't you? A masterwork house is a manor house, and costs a darn sight more than 150gp.

I could see craft(woodworking) for people that make wood sculptures, and furniture. A MW fife would come from someone with many ranks in craft(woodworking). But making a house doesn't really require any finesse. Volunteers help build houses for people in need, and those programs utilize people without any carpentry skill. So, that strikes me as being wis based (profession), not int based (craft).

So, what skill is used to build a house ... ?

Cooper - Craft. Actually, I've heard that making a barrel is a lot more difficult than one thinks.

You've heard correctly.

Lapidary (gem cutter) - Profession. Lapidaries don't make anything. They just cut gems. The Craft() rules would totally break down here. Gems costs hundreds of gold, and according to the craft() rules, should take weeks to create. Cutting a gem takes an hour at best. Craft wouldn't work. You also can't create a masterwork gem. You either cut it correctly, or you don't. You can't improve it.

And in real life, it can take YEARS to figure out how to cut an especially-good stone. It's value tends to go up by orders of magnitude, too.

If you think cutting a gem takes an hour ... you've never looked at what it TAKEs to cut a gem. The physical process may take a short amount of time -- but the planning, callculation, and preparation takes FOREVER.

After all, one mis-placed whack with that hammer and chisel ... and you just ruined a gem worth mroe than yoru whole VILLAGE.

Mason - I suppose I don't have a problem with this being a craft skill, but I'm not sure what a masterwork brick would look like.

Mason's don't MAKE bricks, they LAY them. Brickmakers make bricks.

They also don't take any raw materials and create something from it, unless the raw materials are stones, and the final product is a castle, which doesn't make much sense. Masons just make bricks.

I suggest you read up on what a mason is or isn't before you say they "just make bricks". Bricks, btw, ARE raw materials -- one of two needed to make a brick wall, or a brick chimney, etc. The other ingredient is mortar.

Laborers probably actually lay the stone. The jury is still out on this one.

The laborers may be holding the stone, but the stonemason is the one telling them EXACTLY where to put it (to within surprisingly narrow tolerances ... there're stone walls the Inca built, where you can't fit a human HAIR between any two given stones ...).

Scribe - Profession. They don't create anything in the purest sense. A scribe just copies text from one page to another. Actually, profession as a wisdom-based skill probably doesn't make much sense here, but a dex-based skill does. I would be inclined to make this a separate Dex-based skill.

Again -- you're desribing a clerk. A scribe makes the inks (several of them), and before the days of hte printing press, scribes made BOOKS. Period.

There were no stores to go and bu"Red #42", "Blue #6", and" Gold Leaf #3, Antique" as ink colors. If you wanted a given color, you made it yourself.

Tailor/Seamstress - I suppose this could be a craft, because I guess you could get finely made (masterwork) clothes created. The masterwork rules [...]

Get the hint here, please: you do not need a masterwork version of something to qualify for a Craft skill.

Tanner - Again, this is kind of like lapidary. Tanners just transform the skin into leather, they don't really *make* leather.

Sure they do. Nice suedes, fine kid leather, durable leather for aprons. Some all-leather clothign items, or otehr products, you'd get directly fromt eh tanner as well.

When you purchase masterwork leather, does that come from a tanner, or from a leatherworker?

The armor comes form teh leatherworker. HE, in turn, buys the highest-quality leather from the tanner.

Remember: the ability to make a masterwork version of yoru product is NOT a requirement for the paplication of the craft skill.
 

Pax said:
I don't think everything you can craft should neccessarily HAVE amasterwork version. Are there masterwork bags of Tanglefoot? Nope, yet Craft (alchemy) is there ...

And I don't really agree that alchemy should be a craft skill. I liked it perfectly fine as a separate skill in 3.0. But that's a topic for another discussion.


"Anyone" can paint a technically perfect landscape. Artists do more than that. It's not one's dexterity that matters, it's one's ability to express the meaning and emotion of a scene through the visual medium that counts. Art is a performance -- it's just one you conduct beforehand, and can display repeatedly.

I disagree. I can't paint for crap. Oh sure, I could probably paint a landscape of some mediocre quality, but there'd be no way I could paint a face, or a person, especially not a good one, and especially not one with any sort of expression. That takes skill. Is it charisma based? I don't think so. I don't have a problem lumping it into performance (it ends up being a separate skill anyway, so why not call a spade a spade?) But I don't think it should be based on charisma.


Masterwork bread doesn't have to taste different from regular bread -- but that ten-foot-long, five-foot-high, exquisitely-detailed bread-sculpture (stuffed with meats, ofc) of a DRAGON at His Majesty's table at the Feast of Knights is DEFINITELY a masterwork item, n'est-ce pas?

I don't know. Is it MW? Subject to debate, I suppose, or one could argue it's just bread with a high DC. But, I think when you talk about the preparation of food, etc., you've ceased becoming a baker, and now you're more into chef. Which I would also argue is still just a profession. If a butcher is a profession, does it require a Craft() skill to take it and slap it onto a grill to cook it? By your reasoning, it would since it's taking a raw material and fashioning it into a finished product.
In the SRD, it says this about Profession() : "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." Sounds like a cook or a baker to me.


You're really stuck on "craft means you can make masterwork", aren't you? A masterwork house is a manor house, and costs a darn sight more than 150gp.

Not according to a strict interpretation of the rules it doesn't. You know it, and I know it, but it's not what the book says.


So, what skill is used to build a house ... ?

Profession(carpenter). Craft(woodworking) is used to make violins, fifes, and furniture. Makes sense to me.


And in real life, it can take YEARS to figure out how to cut an especially-good stone. It's value tends to go up by orders of magnitude, too.

Well, that may be, I suppose (never done, so I don't have any expertise there), but the Craft skill doesn't really work there, either, because the formula equates to progress made weekly, or daily on the construction of some item. I'm not sure how that applies in gemcutting.


Mason's don't MAKE bricks, they LAY them. Brickmakers make bricks.

So, it's ok for a scribe to make ink, and paper, but a mason can't make any bricks? Must be a union job.

So, we have Craft(Brickmaking) and Craft(Mason). Odd.

I suggest you read up on what a mason is or isn't before you say they "just make bricks". Bricks, btw, ARE raw materials -- one of two needed to make a brick wall, or a brick chimney, etc. The other ingredient is mortar.

So who makes the mortar?
 

die_kluge said:
I don't know. Is it MW? Subject to debate, I suppose, or one could argue it's just bread with a high DC. But, I think when you talk about the preparation of food, etc., you've ceased becoming a baker, and now you're more into chef. Which I would also argue is still just a profession. If a butcher is a profession, does it require a Craft() skill to take it and slap it onto a grill to cook it? By your reasoning, it would since it's taking a raw material and fashioning it into a finished product.
Hey there dingle I spent 10+ years as a chef. I would go toe to toe in presenting a masterwork meal with you anyday. It is a craft and an art. It is making something from scratch and you can have masterwork food. Would you put a 4 star restaurant on the same level with the local greasy spoon? Nah cause the food has a higher DC and a higher market value - doesn't that make it masterwork there spazo? If I sound enflamatory just keep in mind I'm trying to be because you just said that the skills I spent 10 years honing are nothing more then slapping meat onto a grill.
 

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