Craft or Profession?

[RangerWickett]

I'm almost offended by the suggestion that physical art is not influenced by the charisma of the artist. Charisma, in reality and in the game, is one's ability to express oneself. Just making something is a craft, and if I wanted to make a beautiful statue to grace a palace, it would be a test of my craftsmanship. But if I want to make that same statue uplift the spirit and renew the viewer's faith in life, that's a performance, an expression of my self.

If we considered art to be just a Craft skill, then typing up a copy of Hamlet must be really damned hard. Now, I would say that technical writing, like explaining how to change a tire, or how to create a character, or writing a news story, that is a Craft. For some things, you combine both a Craft and a Perform skill.

In my campaign, not that it's come up (the players aren't as interested in this stuff as I am, usually), I have the following divisions:

Craft
Alchemy
Arms & Armor
Mechanical
Music
Structural
Visual Art
Writing
Miscellaneous - there are several subcategories in here, but they're mostly not glamorous, heroic crafts. Things like clothing, food, furniture, paper goods, barrels, etc. This is the sort of stuff characters would almost never find any use for in game.

Profession
Just one profession. This skill represents your business sense, your ability to make money, much like in d20 Modern. I know there is a difference between a novice shepherd and a master shepherd, but it's just the difference of a few ranks, and I like my skills to actually, y'know, matter.

 

[der_kluge]

RW, in your campaign, is Craft() Int based or something else?

So, I'm a bard in your game, and I want to
A) paint a beautiful picture of water lillies in the style of Monet
B) compose a lyrical melody that children will sing for decades to come
C) sculpt a statue of the king that will inspire a generation

What rolls do I make?

 

[RangerWickett]

RW, in your campaign, is Craft() Int based or something else?

So, I'm a bard in your game, and I want to
A) paint a beautiful picture of water lillies in the style of Monet
B) compose a lyrical melody that children will sing for decades to come
C) sculpt a statue of the king that will inspire a generation

What rolls do I make?

In response to your . . . response . . . I'm rethinking a few of my ideas, but here goes:

Craft is still Intelligence-based. You use Craft to make something that you can sell. Characters with high Craft skills can make items that become famous for how well-made they are, like the clocktower Big Ben. Things created with Craft might evoke an emotional response, but that is incidental; the main purpose of this skill is to make things that people can have or use.

Perform is Charisma-based. You use Perform to evoke emotions. You might be able to make money off of performance, but that is incidental; the main purpose of this skill is to do something that will affect the viewer or listener.

If the final result is primarily judged on its physical form, such as whether it's sturdy enough, whether it can cut particularly well, then you use Craft. If the final result is judged on its artistic merit, then you use Perform.

If you want a beautiful painting that's pleasant to look at, that's either an incidentally easy Craft check (i.e., you just want to make a painting, and don't really care how it looks), or it's a Perform check, with a synergy bonus from 5+ ranks of Craft (painting). The synergy bonus represents your ability to precisely create just the image you intend.

If you want a good piece of music, it's Perform, with a synergy bonus from Craft (music). The synergy bonus represents your ability to combine the technical elements of sound to assist in creating the feel you want. So a good Perform might let you come up with a catchy tune that kids will want to sing, but Craft will help you make sure it's the sort of thing that sounds good coming from the voices of children, and that it works well when groups sing it together without rehearsal.

Now, if you just used Craft (music) by yourself, you could create a 'tango beat,' or a 'minor guitar piece.' It would fulfill all the technical requirements to fit that genre, but it wouldn't be moving.


Well, if you want a statue that will inspire a generation, that would, again, just be Perform. If you want a statue that will inspire several generations because it will not fall over the first time someone bumps into it, and that will be flashy and expensive, that's Craft.

Now, I'm thinking of having two tiers to Perform checks. Let's make a new skill, and just call it Art. Or we could make it Craft (Art) and base it on Charisma as an exception. You can make an Art check to make something artistic, and we'll set the base time to make a check to one day, and this is enough to create a few pages of a story, a single painting or sculpture, a few short songs, etc. You can always try again to make it better, but if you're working on a book or something, taking 20 would mean you're spending days on every few pages.

You also have to make a Craft check in tandem with the Art check, to actually make the thing. Of course, crafting words on a page is effectively free; but if you want to make a very nice looking book, or if you're aiming for an expensive, impressive item (that's also brilliantly poetic), the Craft DC will be much higher.

The quality of this art is good or bad based on the total result of your check, with a scale much like Perform. 10 is fair, 20 is really good, 30 is historical. If you create an artistic item, something that stands on its own merits, make your Art check, and that's how good it is. I don't have any idea for rules yet on how an Art check would ever really affect the game, but I'll think about it.

Now, just as a masterwork instrument (created through Craft) gives a bonus to Perform checks, a masterwork piece of art can help you perform better. If your Art check is 30 or higher, the item is considered a masterpiece, and it provides a bonus to Perform checks that use that piece. The bonus can be a simple +2 bonus, or it can be something specifically appropriate to the piece. I'm not sure quite what it would be, but that would fall under House Rules anyway, which is where I think I'll repost this, unless anyone has anymore questions about the core rules.

 

[Silveras]

Per the 3.5 PHB:

Craft examples:
alchemy, armorsmithing, basketweaving, bookbinding, bowmaking, blacksmithing, calligraphy, carpentry, cobbling, gemcutting, leatherworking, locksmithing, painting, pottery, sculpting, shipmaking, stonemasonry, trapmaking, weaponsmithing, weaving.

Profession examples:
apothecary, boater, bookkeeper, brewer, cook, driver, farmer, fisher, guide, herbalist, herder, hunter, innkeeper, lumberjack, miller, miner, porter, rancher, sailor, scribe, siege engineer, stablehand, tanner, teamster, woodcutter

Perform examples:
act, comedy, dance, keyboard instruments, oratory, percussion instruments, string instruments, wind instruments, sing (hmm... does that make a person a wind instrument ? )

 

[RangerWickett]

RW, in your campaign, is Craft() Int based or something else?

So, I'm a bard in your game, and I want to
A) paint a beautiful picture of water lillies in the style of Monet
B) compose a lyrical melody that children will sing for decades to come
C) sculpt a statue of the king that will inspire a generation

What rolls do I make?

In response to your . . . response . . . I'm rethinking a few of my ideas, but here goes:

Craft is still Intelligence-based. You use Craft to make something that you can sell. Characters with high Craft skills can make items that become famous for how well-made they are, like the clocktower Big Ben. Things created with Craft might evoke an emotional response, but that is incidental; the main purpose of this skill is to make things that people can have or use.

Perform is Charisma-based. You use Perform to evoke emotions. You might be able to make money off of performance, but that is incidental; the main purpose of this skill is to do something that will affect the viewer or listener.

If the final result is primarily judged on its physical form, such as whether it's sturdy enough, whether it can cut particularly well, then you use Craft. If the final result is judged on its artistic merit, then you use Perform.

If you want a beautiful painting that's pleasant to look at, that's either an incidentally easy Craft check (i.e., you just want to make a painting, and don't really care how it looks), or it's a Perform check, with a synergy bonus from 5+ ranks of Craft (painting). The synergy bonus represents your ability to precisely create just the image you intend.

If you want a good piece of music, it's Perform, with a synergy bonus from Craft (music). The synergy bonus represents your ability to combine the technical elements of sound to assist in creating the feel you want. So a good Perform might let you come up with a catchy tune that kids will want to sing, but Craft will help you make sure it's the sort of thing that sounds good coming from the voices of children, and that it works well when groups sing it together without rehearsal.

Now, if you just used Craft (music) by yourself, you could create a 'tango beat,' or a 'minor guitar piece.' It would fulfill all the technical requirements to fit that genre, but it wouldn't be moving.


Well, if you want a statue that will inspire a generation, that would, again, just be Perform. If you want a statue that will inspire several generations because it will not fall over the first time someone bumps into it, and that will be flashy and expensive, that's Craft.

Now, I'm thinking of having two tiers to Perform checks. Let's make a new skill, and just call it Art. Or we could make it Craft (Art) and base it on Charisma as an exception. You can make an Art check to make something artistic, and we'll set the base time to make a check to one day, and this is enough to create a few pages of a story, a single painting or sculpture, a few short songs, etc. You can always try again to make it better, but if you're working on a book or something, taking 20 would mean you're spending days on every few pages.

You also have to make a Craft check in tandem with the Art check, to actually make the thing. Of course, crafting words on a page is effectively free; but if you want to make a very nice looking book, or if you're aiming for an expensive, impressive item (that's also brilliantly poetic), the Craft DC will be much higher.

The quality of this art is good or bad based on the total result of your check, with a scale much like Perform. 10 is fair, 20 is really good, 30 is historical. If you create an artistic item, something that stands on its own merits, make your Art check, and that's how good it is. I don't have any idea for rules yet on how an Art check would ever really affect the game, but I'll think about it.

Now, just as a masterwork instrument (created through Craft) gives a bonus to Perform checks, a masterwork piece of art can help you perform better. If your Art check is 30 or higher, the item is considered a masterpiece, and it provides a bonus to Perform checks that use that piece. The bonus can be a simple +2 bonus, or it can be something specifically appropriate to the piece. I'm not sure quite what it would be, but that would fall under House Rules anyway, which is where I think I'll repost this, unless anyone has anymore questions about the core rules.

 

[der_kluge]

Per the 3.5 PHB:

Craft examples:
alchemy, armorsmithing, basketweaving, bookbinding, bowmaking, blacksmithing, calligraphy, carpentry, cobbling, gemcutting, leatherworking, locksmithing, painting, pottery, sculpting, shipmaking, stonemasonry, trapmaking, weaponsmithing, weaving.

Profession examples:
apothecary, boater, bookkeeper, brewer, cook, driver, farmer, fisher, guide, herbalist, herder, hunter, innkeeper, lumberjack, miller, miner, porter, rancher, sailor, scribe, siege engineer, stablehand, tanner, teamster, woodcutter

Perform examples:
act, comedy, dance, keyboard instruments, oratory, percussion instruments, string instruments, wind instruments, sing (hmm... does that make a person a wind instrument ? )

I see that Craft() has painting and sculpting as examples. I'd hate to see the Craft DC for Monet's _Water Lillies_. Plus, as an Int based skill, it makes no sense. I would argue that most artists really aren't that *smart*. Talented yes, but most artists aren't known for being physicists.

I'll follow this up with RW's thread in House Rules.

 

[Silveras]

I see that Craft() has painting and sculpting as examples. I'd hate to see the Craft DC for Monet's _Water Lillies_. Plus, as an Int based skill, it makes no sense. I would argue that most artists really aren't that *smart*. Talented yes, but most artists aren't known for being physicists.

I'll follow this up with RW's thread in House Rules.

Yes, well, remember that the craft rules are there more for the PCs to make useful, practical items than for anything else. In that sense, I think painting and sculpture as Craft() checks are more representative of the ability to make "commercial art" (standard decorations on buildings, basic decorative mural or commissioned portrait paintings, common statuary for tombs and temples, etc.) than for "fine art" (evocative, unique pieces).

 

[der_kluge]

So what would you give Monet or Van Gogh ranks in? Craft() or something else?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's worth pointing out that this reflects a very modern idea of art that only emerged in the last few centuries. Most of what we now think of as "fine art"--Michelangelo's sculptures or paintings, Cranach and Duerer's woodcuts, the illumination of the book of Kells, Rembrandt's portraits, Shakespeare's plays, Sophocles' plays, etc--were actually not created for the purpose of disinterested aesthetic contemplation. They were created as commissioned portraits or sculptures, or as standard, mass market genre plays, etc. As far as I know, being "unique" was not even a concept in many of their authors' minds. It certainly wasn't evident as a desire in the construction of the great Cathedrals--many of which are now thought of as high examples of "art." Every reqium mass (and I don't think anyone here would want to say that Motzart's Reqium Mass is not fine art) is to some degree, a standard piece of music that has to fit a defined purpose and include certain standard elements. Even some more modern "fine art" fits this category. Berthold Brecht, for instance, intended for his plays to aid the socialist revolution rather than to be objects for borgeouis contemplation. Similarly, it is rather difficult to argue that Jackson Pollock, for instance, was not a commercial artist. He made his living through art, after all, just as much as Thomas Kincaid does. That his audience, reputation, and skill are arguably different does not rest upon any concrete and definable difference in what he does.

This commercial/fine art distinction is entirely artificial and is often imposed upon the works of previous centuries by moderns intent on understanding everything through the narrow, myopic lens they insist on viewing art through. (For that matter, the concept of "art" itself is a relatively modern one--in past ages, music, for instance was thought to have much more in common with mathematics than with painting).

I think it makes a lot of sense to categorize what are traditionally considered non-performance arts (sculpture, painting, composition, etc) as craft skills. Sure, artists aren't necessarily smart people and a lot of them are dumb as posts. (Although many artists were actually quite brilliant in general--Leonardo Da Vinci comes to mind). But when any character wants to create works that are more than simply passable, the number of ranks will matter far more than the int bonus. A 10th level expert with an int of ten and Skill Focus: Painting is far more likely to create a DC 30 masterpiece than a wizard with a 20 int and two ranks.

(And, if you really need to come up with an explanation for the fact that the 31 int 20th level wizard is capable of coming up with masterpieces with only minimal training (interpreting artistic crafts as semi-trained only skills in the same manner as appraise--something not entirely supported by the rules but that the precedent of rank requirements for prestige classes supports), all you need to do is forget the "wizard as scientist" image and replace it with a less clinical one in which magic itself is an art form (and wizards often call it "the art" in literature, don't they). When wizards talked about the "beauty" of a magic missile spell (considered a perfect masterpiece in its balance of simplicity and power--the meanest apprentice can conjure an effective one up but only a master can unlock its true potential), the rest of the world wouldn't know what they're talking about, but it would make as much sense to them as discussing the "beauty" or "elegance" of a formula or proof does to mathematicians).

Yes, well, remember that the craft rules are there more for the PCs to make useful, practical items than for anything else. In that sense, I think painting and sculpture as Craft() checks are more representative of the ability to make "commercial art" (standard decorations on buildings, basic decorative mural or commissioned portrait paintings, common statuary for tombs and temples, etc.) than for "fine art" (evocative, unique pieces).

 

[Silveras]

So what would you give Monet or Van Gogh ranks in? Craft() or something else?

Well, unless you are running a d20 modern game, I would look back to daVinci or Michaelangelo for my Medieval/Renaissance art examples.

I don't think truly fine (i.e., world-class great) art is a single skill operation. I would certainly give the great artists high Craft() ranks, and Skill Focus, for insanely high abilities. I would also give them either a high Wisdom, or create a skill called 'Empathy'.

Perform is suited for personal interaction; that is why we now have a category of art called 'Performance Art'. If the "art" involves the character being present and provoking a reaction based on his/her presence/appearance, I would call that art form Charisma-based. But most others, like painting and sculpture, are still Craft() for the execution.

Where I would complicate the process is by adding, for Fine art, an envisioning and/or composition phase. A point at which the artist applies Sense Motive, perhaps, to understand what kind of image will be likely to produce the desired effect in the viewer. S/he then uses Empathy to compose a scene that assembles the elements into a cohesive image. Finally, Craft() is used to make the painting or sculpture that embodies the vision. A truly great piece of art might require the optional Critical Success rules on all of those checks -- Critical Success at intuiting what are the right symbols, Critical Success at envisioning them assembled, and a third at Craft() to actually make the vision real.

Hmmm.. one could also then rule that works with only 2 Critical Successes are still good pieces of art, but worth less than the 3-success pieces.

The problem, I think, is that sometimes we forget that a rules set can't encompass everything. Some things are just not easily represented in game rules. I would say that great artisty is one of them. Unless a PC is set on becoming a world-class artist, I would not worry too much about how to fit it into the game rules.