Craft/Profession

[GnomeWorks]

??

Mission accomplished!

D&D is very focused on combat and has always been that way. That's why I went to D&D from Runequest (explanation: all those non-combat skills looked nice but in the end of the day, violence was the solution). So if you want a game that focuses on brewing, crafting and professions, most likely you will never be satisfied with D&D.

You may want to get those violent tendencies looked at.

The game doesn't have to focus on just one thing, surprisingly enough. It can have solid rules for both killing dudes and making things for them.

That's one part. The other part is that it's very hard to design generic adventures for a skill that is as broad as profession. If you design adventures for your group, that's one thing. Then you know that Gamlo the Dwarf brews good ale, Logelas the Elf is a teamster of reputation and Bolbi the Halfling is a reknowned smith. In that case, you can add elements of brewing, smithing and driving wagons. The problem I find with that approach is that it feels stupid to add uses for skills because the PCs got them.

This is part of that whole concept where the PCs are special snowflakes.

Repeat after me: the PCs are not special snowflakes. Get that in your head, and this problem magically goes away.

If you are to publish an adventure it is hard to add, say, a brewing contest because the odds aren't good that someone has profession (brewing). Most parties will fail that challenge due to noone having the skill. Contrast that with Religion or Dungeoneering, where the odds are good that someone has the skill.

Convenient that any task the party is faced with, they have the means to overcome.

I wish anything else ever worked like that.

 

[GnomeWorks]

My approach to non-combat or non-adventuring "skills" to combat and adventuring skills would be to "silo" them.

Never force a player to make a choice between a non-combat ability and a combat ability.

Winnar.

A person can be good at athletics, endurance and through history understand the workings of blacksmithing then apply all these abilities he has to blacksmith.

Athletics is an understanding of physics, knowledge of your physical limits, and your actual physical limits.

So a simple combination of Physics (the skill), Anatomy, and Endurance should be able to replace athletics.

 

[hong]

You may want to get those violent tendencies looked at.

Why?

The game doesn't have to focus on just one thing, surprisingly enough. It can have solid rules for both killing dudes and making things for them.

Why don't you want to kill things and take their stuff?

This is part of that whole concept where the PCs are special snowflakes.

Repeat after me: the PCs are not special snowflakes. Get that in your head, and this problem magically goes away.

You'll note that the people you are talking to are not the ones having problems.

 

[FireLance]

Convenient that any task the party is faced with, they have the means to overcome.

I wish anything else ever worked like that.

Unfortunately, this only happens in your fantasies. Or in games.

Wait...

 

[GnomeWorks]

Why?

Why not?

Why don't you want to kill things and take their stuff?

Why do you?

You'll note that the people you are talking to are not the ones having problems.

The first step to overcoming any problem is acknowledging that you have a problem.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Unfortunately, this only happens in your fantasies. Or in games.

Wait...

You should not be always presented with problems for which you have or are the perfect tool with which to solve them. That will rapidly become tedious.

 

[hong]

Why not?

You first.

Why do you?

Because it's fun. Are you having fun?

The first step to overcoming any problem is acknowledging that you have a problem.

Exactly. So get in there and start killing things.

 

[hong]

You should not be always presented with problems for which you have or are the perfect tool with which to solve them. That will rapidly become tedious.

Nobody has the perfect tools with which to solve anything.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You missed the point.

Split them up. You have two separate pools from which to take fireball and phantom steed. Do the same with "know stuff" and brewing.

That's the first step, and a good one.
The problem is still figuring out which of these two aspects you want to focus on in your game.

My understanding of the 4e understanding of needless symmetry is that it's needless if it isn't awesomesauce and/or related to combat.



If you use all of the material in all the books 99% of the time, you impress me, good sir.

When was the last time you used an athach? An achaierai? An allip? An assassin vine?

Never, too often (once), probably never? Not often enough (once).

Now you're being silly. Because if I want to play a game where I kill things and take their stuff, and that's the be-all end-all, I might as well go play gauntlet.

If i just knew what this gauntlet thing was.

And brewing is used for celebrating after the fact. And craft (blacksmithing) for making the weapons you use to kill the dudes guarding the treasure.



Whenever you need a basket, of course. And who doesn't need a basket?



Why does climbing a tree require a check?

Why doe celebrating after the fact require a skill?

If the system adequately covers several areas of gameplay - combat, social encounters, crafting - and covers each of them in roughly the same level of detail, with each afforded the same level of options, then the focus of the game can be any of them or all of them. Having crafting rules at all doesn't detract from your 300 pages of teh combat.

What is covered "adequately"?

If I want a simplified game, sure, I can use 300 pages to cover combat, adventuring stuff, crafting and profession, all in equal detail. But the detail wouldn't be very high.
I know that my group gains a lot of fun in building characters and in-game strategies, and we like to "explore" the possibilities here in depth. But if one player would wants to play an "Expert Blacksmith", the other a "Greatsword Specialist", and the third a "Radiant Servant of Pelor", well, it becomes harder to explore all this stuff together. The Blacksmith is playing his black-smithing mini-game, while the Greatsword Specialist and the Radiant Servant play there combat mini-game.

Only because weapon smithing has thus far been presented as a rather boring mechanic. If it were more involved, perhaps your opinion would be different.

Nope. If it was more involved, I could just as well play Monopoly or Skat. The imaginary of weapon smithing just isn't as interesting as that of combat. That's why there is an action movie genre, but not a weapon smithing movie genre. I might reconsider if you can promise me Tool Time quality comedy with your weapon-smithing rules, but somehow I do not think that you can create rules to pull that off.

 

[GnomeWorks]

You first.

Why?

Because it's fun. Are you having fun?

Lots of things are fun. Killing dudes and taking their stuff is among the lots. So is making stuff.

Exactly. So get in there and start killing things.

You're not a special snowflake, either. Sorry.