Craft/Profession

[hong]

Why?

You first.

Lots of things are fun. Killing dudes and taking their stuff is among the lots. So is making stuff.

So start having fun, as opposed to complaining about not having fun.

You're not a special snowflake, either. Sorry.

Of course I am. Now you, on the other hand, may have a problem.

 

[med stud]

Mission accomplished!

You are awarded with 200 XP and 65 silver pieces. Good job!

You may want to get those violent tendencies looked at.

It's more that compared to blacksmithing and brewing, I have a more interesting professional and private life. If I wanted to do brewing, I could do it IRL and get some concrete benefits from it. Fights against impossible odds? Not really practical IRL, it would also get my in jail or in the mortuary. Besides, fighting in real life would hurt people, something I don't want do and something I have sworn an oath not to do. To me, RPGs are a way to get away from reality and do fantastic things for a couple of hours per week. That includes enjoying fantastical things, not roleplaying about going to work.

The game doesn't have to focus on just one thing, surprisingly enough. It can have solid rules for both killing dudes and making things for them.

At a cost, and that cost is pagecount. I don't want a 500 pages long PHB just because the crafting and profession rules take up as many pages as the combat chapter. I would have to pay for it and the book would be unwieldy. Besides, again, if I want to make things I prefer to do it IRL. Why roleplay about sailing when you can do it yourself? Same thing with painting and smithing and all that.

This is part of that whole concept where the PCs are special snowflakes.

Like it or not, they are special snowflakes (well, on a philosophical level, everyone is a special snowflake). The PCs are the only ones in the campaign world that I, the DM, doesn't control. They are the protagonists of the story and what happens to them is the most important part of the particular story where they are involved

Repeat after me: the PCs are not special snowflakes. Get that in your head, and this problem magically goes away.

Is this some strange fight for equal rights between imaginary NPCs and imaginary PCs? In that case I think it's a nice thought but pointless. My NPCs don't feel looked down upon because the PCs get boons. I know, because I made them .

Convenient that any task the party is faced with, they have the means to overcome.

I wish anything else ever worked like that.

Yes, it would be great if you had the means to handle every task IRL. That's not what we are talking about here, though. We are talking about a game where the DM has full control of everything that happens. If I make an adventure before the players have made their characters and I add a challenge that is dependent on Profession (brewing), I know that it is a long shot. Therefore, the challenge can't be critical or the adventure would grind to a halt. The alternative is that the PCs hire a brewer to solve it but then I could eliminate the middle man (that is, the skill) and just make the brewer integral. If the challenge is not critical, then a player has burned 4 skill ranks on a skill that adds some quaint colour to the adventure. In that case, it's an unproportionally high cost in skill ranks for a small effect. Better to just eliminate the skill in that case so that the player won't feel screwed.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Never, too often (once), probably never? Not often enough (once).

Why no love for the hell-chickens?

If i just knew what this gauntlet thing was.

Food is good!

Why doe celebrating after the fact require a skill?

Because of the possibility for hilarity to ensue.

If I want a simplified game, sure, I can use 300 pages to cover combat, adventuring stuff, crafting and profession, all in equal detail. But the detail wouldn't be very high.

And fair enough. But I hear that there are going to be multiple PHs and such down the line. What, pray tell, will they be filled with? Surely not rehashed combat rules each time?

I know that my group gains a lot of fun in building characters and in-game strategies, and we like to "explore" the possibilities here in depth. But if one player would wants to play an "Expert Blacksmith", the other a "Greatsword Specialist", and the third a "Radiant Servant of Pelor", well, it becomes harder to explore all this stuff together. The Blacksmith is playing his black-smithing mini-game, while the Greatsword Specialist and the Radiant Servant play there combat mini-game.

Nothing wrong with minigames.

If the process that went into blacksmithing were as involved and involving (in the sense that everyone gets involved) as combat, would it be as interesting? Surely that is possible.

Nope. If it was more involved, I could just as well play Monopoly or Skat. The imaginary of weapon smithing just isn't as interesting as that of combat. That's why there is an action movie genre, but not a weapon smithing movie genre. I might reconsider if you can promise me Tool Time quality comedy with your weapon-smithing rules, but somehow I do not think that you can create rules to pull that off.

If I could, I surely wouldn't be here posting at 4 in the morning. I'd be too busy swimming in a sea of cash, Scrooge McDuck-style.

 

[GnomeWorks]

You first.

Anger is unhealthy.

So start having fun, as opposed to complaining about not having fun.

I don't recall saying I wasn't having fun.

Of course I am. Now you, on the other hand, may have a problem.

Of course you think you are. Everyone does. But you're not.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Mission accomplished!



You may want to get those violent tendencies looked at.

I can't speak for med_stud, but I am pretty peaceful in real life. And I also don't have anger management issues.
Pretended Violence is still a lot of fun, very unlike the real thing.

This is part of that whole concept where the PCs are special snowflakes.

Repeat after me: the PCs are not special snowflakes. Get that in your head, and this problem magically goes away.

No, the fun goes magically way. "Wait, I am just an average guy, just like in real life? I don't have a destiny, special powers, or interesting adventures. Okay, I think I'm going to read a book or watch a movie, then."

I do not play a game to be an ordinary guy with ordinary issues. I might do it if I was a hero in real life, just to remind me of how easy life can be, when your actions do not shape the fate of the village or nation...

 

[hong]

Anger is unhealthy.

Are you angry?

I don't recall saying I wasn't having fun.

Good. Now start killing things.

Of course you think you are. Everyone does. But you're not.

Oh man, I bet you even pretend that elves are real.

 

[GnomeWorks]

You are awarded with 200 XP and 65 silver pieces. Good job!

Ding!

It's more that compared to blacksmithing and brewing, I have a more interesting professional and private life. If I wanted to do brewing, I could do it IRL and get some concrete benefits from it. Fights against impossible odds? Not really practical IRL, it would also get my in jail or in the mortuary. Besides, fighting in real life would hurt people, something I don't want do and something I have sworn an oath not to do. To me, RPGs are a way to get away from reality and do fantastic things for a couple of hours per week. That includes enjoying fantastical things, not roleplaying about going to work.

Smithing is only as mundane as you make it out to be. Same with brewing.

At a cost, and that cost is pagecount. I don't want a 500 pages long PHB just because the crafting and profession rules take up as many pages as the combat chapter. I would have to pay for it and the book would be unwieldy. Besides, again, if I want to make things I prefer to do it IRL. Why roleplay about sailing when you can do it yourself? Same thing with painting and smithing and all that.

Multiple books. Compartmentalize the system. At that point, it'd be modular, and there'd be no reason not to.

Like it or not, they are special snowflakes (well, on a philosophical level, everyone is a special snowflake). The PCs are the only ones in the campaign world that I, the DM, doesn't control. They are the protagonists of the story and what happens to them is the most important part of the particular story where they are involved

The PCs are special snowflakes only insofar as they are controlled by players and not the DM. They do not stand out in the world, unless they are of significant enough power to warrant such.

Is this some strange fight for equal rights between imaginary NPCs and imaginary PCs? In that case I think it's a nice thought but pointless. My NPCs don't feel looked down upon because the PCs get boons. I know, because I made them .

Protagonization is lame.

Yes, it would be great if you had the means to handle every task IRL. That's not what we are talking about here, though. We are talking about a game where the DM has full control of everything that happens. If I make an adventure before the players have made their characters and I add a challenge that is dependent on Profession (brewing), I know that it is a long shot. Therefore, the challenge can't be critical or the adventure would grind to a halt. The alternative is that the PCs hire a brewer to solve it but then I could eliminate the middle man (that is, the skill) and just make the brewer integral. If the challenge is not critical, then a player has burned 4 skill ranks on a skill that adds some quaint colour to the adventure. In that case, it's an unproportionally high cost in skill ranks for a small effect. Better to just eliminate the skill in that case so that the player won't feel screwed.

That sounds like treating the PCs like special snowflakes.

 

[FireLance]

You should not be always presented with problems for which you have or are the perfect tool with which to solve them. That will rapidly become tedious.

True, but there's plenty of middle ground between the automatic success and the automatic failure where there is tension because the outcome is uncertain, and where luck and player choices can make a difference. And in D&D, the perfect tool just grants you a small equipment bonus.

My beef with the craft and profession skills is that rules for them are too much effort for too little payoff. Perhaps it's just the way that I run my games, but in all my years of playing 3e, a PC's craft and profession skills made about as much difference to the game as the fact that his hair was black or that his eyes were blue. It simply wasn't an issue that we focused on, in-game (we did have some rules for how they would translate into extra equipment or wealth for the PC, but that happened out-of-game). And if my experience is typcial of most gaming groups, it's not surprising that they are left out of the PH.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Are you angry?

You first.

Good. Now start killing things.

Right now I could go for a drink. I'll pass on the killin' dudes.

Oh man, I bet you even pretend that elves are real.

I knew you were just a figment of my imagination.

 

[hong]

Smithing is only as mundane as you make it out to be. Same with brewing.

Stick to the polysyllabic essays, kid.

The PCs are special snowflakes only insofar as they are controlled by players and not the DM. They do not stand out in the world, unless they are of significant enough power to warrant such.

Precisely. The game does not exist unless there are both players and DMs.

Protagonization is lame.

Protagonisation is a new technology that purifies the air around you, leading to fewer allergens and bacteriae that can cause harmful ailments. Order your protagoniser today!

That sounds like treating the PCs like special snowflakes.

You say this like it's a negative thing.