Craft skill...

[Kahuna Burger]

Re: Re: crafting items

Not quite true. For masterwork, you are going to have to carefully choose the right leather, carefully hand cut the strips so they are properly tapered. Then carefully do the braiding. Probably just braiding the handle end alone would take a day or so.
Full hand-crafting takes time. Quality takes more.

And the rest of the 20 days is spent...? he said serveral weeks. And that carefully choosen leather is accounted for in the fact that you have to pay a good chunk of upfront materials money to make a masterwork item over the regular materials cost (because, of course, a finely crafted item always takes more expensive components that a more poorly made one. and always by the same percentage.)

You have perhaps corrected an extreme counterexample, but you have not defended the craft rules in this case...

Kahuna Burger

 

[Zogg]

Uh....I'm all about the storytelling aspect of the adventure.

But as for the 'story' that involves a craftsman....what's to tell?

"I, Melgor, am a craftsman from the trade district of Waterdeep. I've grown under the tutelage of Balgor my father, who learned the trade from his father before him. I make many great things, toiling long and hard every day...and I sweat all day as my strong muscles flex and shape great armors by the nearby forge."

The other adventurers: Ok. Cool. Nice to meet you Melgor. So, uh, want to go with us to kill some bone dragons that are terrorizing the nearby village?

"I can't. I've got to finish this holy chainmail of speed +2. It's going to take me another 4 months."

The other adventurers: Oh. So I guess we could split up or just wait until you are done. WHAT FUN THAT WILL BE!

Hopefully you get the point.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Yeah I beleive that would be called for

Anyway, my hope was that someone had already come up with some sort of rule supplement... since not, it'll go on my "to do" list as well, hehe.

I think this calls for a non pornographic house rules development forum. Think I'll open something up over there...

(Of course it would help if those who knew enough about crafting to shoot people down on this thread actually applied their knowlege to helping improve the rules... But it seems easier to dismiss or even just attenuate one part of an objection and pretend that makes the current system good... )

Kahuna burger

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Uh....I'm all about the storytelling aspect of the adventure.

But as for the 'story' that involves a craftsman....what's to tell?

(snip strawman post about a common craftsman rather than an adventurer with crafting skills who adventures in part to find valuable components)

Hopefully you get the point.

Yes, I certainly do, but probably not the one you thought you were making. back atcha...

Kahuna Burger

 

[alsih2o]

I think this calls for a non pornographic house rules development forum. Think I'll open something up over there...

(Of course it would help if those who knew enough about crafting to shoot people down on this thread actually applied their knowlege to helping improve the rules... But it seems easier to dismiss or even just attenuate one part of an objection and pretend that makes the current system good... )

Kahuna burger

but we are trying to apply our knowledge to show how it is pretty darned good (as a system). i for one would assume that soemone making a masterwork leather item wouldn't just be braiding but would want to cure the leather their way, not use the same crappy leather used to make your average peasants shoes.

the same goes for much of these problems, i think non-crafters are just trying not to pay attention to the fact that there is an incredible amount of work involved in crafting anything well.

maybe it would help if some people accepted that the people who "know something about crafting" accept the rules because they are pretty darned valid.

 

[Arravis]

Alsih2o, I am talking mostly about non-Masterwork items. If my character had wood carving skill and I wanted to carve a practice sword, it shouldn't take me all day or longer (don't have the DMG in front of me to check). For Masterwork items I could see all kinds of reasons for it taking a long time... non-masterwork items though also take a VERY long time compared to the realistic amount of time they take (At least on the skills I know. I did alot of wood carving as a kid, made arrows in the boyscouts, and a bunch of other crafts).

 

[Zogg]

Fair enough, Kahuna.

All I can say is that I am currently adventuring with one such "travelling, adventuring craftsman" and it's pretty irritating. We almost never go more than a day's worth away from the capitol city of this particular region (and you can fault this in part on the DM, though she TRIES to lead further away) and we always return so he (a cleric 1/wiz 7) can identify arcane items and craft things. The last session began with him staying in town for 1 month to craft something and conclude his shopping agenda. Granted, he's always well prepared (and may have been scared in the past sessions when everyone but him ended up dead), but on the other hand his crafting is a selfish endeavor....and THAT is the problem. The craft skill is very time consuming and is a one-man show. Sure, you can craft things for your friends, but they will basically have to kill several weeks if not months in the interim. And to me, that's a story killer. Not every adventure session needs to have a sense of urgency, but if every session is a "chapter" it's nice if there's something going on so that the story vehicle is moving forward - not stalled out on the side of the road while the wizard is figuratively changing the tire.

Now, if the DM can juggle and the rogue, cleric, barbarian and monk can manage to adventure while the wizard is crafting his items in town, then cool. But I also believe in party unity which is another thing the craft skill often gets in the way of. So really I'd be cool with eliminating it altogether.

 

[alsih2o]

Alsih2o, I am talking mostly about non-Masterwork items. If my character had wood carving skill and I wanted to carve a practice sword, it shouldn't take me all day or longer (don't have the DMG in front of me to check). For Masterwork items I could see all kinds of reasons for it taking a long time... non-masterwork items though also take a VERY long time compared to the realistic amount of time they take (At least on the skills I know. I did alot of wood carving as a kid, made arrows in the boyscouts, and a bunch of other crafts).

i understand, i think, your point, but realize that mediaval tools would have been much less effective than even what a boyscout uses. heck, some of these guys had to sharpen their gouges every 5 blows!!

 

[iwatt]

My problem with the Craft skills is that a crafter is more efficient producing higher quality items (high DC) than run of the mill items (lowish DC). This is due to the fatc that the a craft skill indicates how much sp is produced during the week. The formula i :

SPC =Craft DC x (d20+Craft Mod) (Silver Pieces Crafted)

So an artisan who takes 10 in his roll is producing proportionally less in a week if he decides to craft cheap items. I believe the amount produced each week should be an amount directly tied to the Crafters Skill. I haven't tested this, but maybe the formula should be:

SPC=(10+Craft Mod)x(d20+Craft Mod)

which still introduces some random production if he decides to roll. He can still take 10, which would give an artisan a constant production per week independent of the quality of the item.

This method would hasten crafting by a margin only for highly skilled artisans (who when taking 10 overshoot bya noticeable margin the equipment craft Dcs).

I also beleive that sp/week is a bit low, while gp/week is a bit high. Maybe electrum pieces per week is more appropriate.

maybe this should go in the House Rules forum. If so I apologize.

 

[alsih2o]

Alsih2o, I am talking mostly about non-Masterwork items. If my character had wood carving skill and I wanted to carve a practice sword, it shouldn't take me all day or longer (don't have the DMG in front of me to check). For Masterwork items I could see all kinds of reasons for it taking a long time... non-masterwork items though also take a VERY long time compared to the realistic amount of time they take (At least on the skills I know. I did alot of wood carving as a kid, made arrows in the boyscouts, and a bunch of other crafts).

i understand, i think, your point, but realize that mediaval tools would have been much less effective than even what a boyscout uses. heck, some of these guys had to sharpen their gouges every 5 blows!!