Craft skill...

[Sanackranib]

Re: Re: crafting items

Not quite true. For masterwork, you are going to have to carefully choose the right leather, carefully hand cut the strips so they are properly tapered. Then carefully do the braiding. Probably just braiding the handle end alone would take a day or so.
Full hand-crafting takes time. Quality takes more.

I have never disputed that quality takes time. only that in some cases the time is unrealistic when you consider that a character works 8 hours a day on the task. the reason I used leatherworking and the whip was because it obviously wouldnt take thew many weeks that the rules per sp's/day whould require and that each craft must be evaluated independantly

 

[Conaill]

My problem with the Craft skills is that a crafter is more efficient producing higher quality items (high DC) than run of the mill items (lowish DC). This is due to the fatc that the a craft skill indicates how much sp is produced during the week. The formula i :

SPC =Craft DC x (d20+Craft Mod) (Silver Pieces Crafted)

So an artisan who takes 10 in his roll is producing proportionally less in a week if he decides to craft cheap items. I believe the amount produced each week should be an amount directly tied to the Crafters Skill.

Now, that part of the Craft mechanism I have no problem with. It seems counterintuitive at first, but that's only because the formula really tries to reverse-engineer the time to craft from the existing item tables.

In reality, the price of an item would be determined by the DC of the item, and how long it takes to craft, rather than time to craft being determined by price and DC. However, for convenience, items are listed by price, so we need to calculate the time to craft backwards using:

time = price / DC

In other words, if you try to craft two items that have the same market value but have different craft DCs... the only way those items can have the same market value is if the easier one actually takes longer to craft!

For example, crafter 1 wants to craft a large batch of fairly low-quality metal forks. Let's say 150 forks at 1sp a piece, Craft DC 5, lots of busy-work. Crafter 2 wants to craft a longsword: 15 gp, DC 15. Even though forks are trivial to make compared to the longsword, that batch of forks costs the same as a longsword. Why? Because it takes much longer to finish, even though most of it is just busy-work that requires very little skill!

It all makes sense, if you look at it the right way. (I.e. backwards! )

 

[Umbran]

And why NOT, damnit! I *want* to play and adventuring alchemist.

Because, Conaill, the rulebook is of finite size, the designers only had a finite amount of time to write it, and it's gotta sell for a reasonably low price. Asking game designers to include everything anyone might ever want is simply unreasonable.

A lot of other people *want* to play PCs who also occasionally craft some items for themselves. The crafting times WotC failry arbitrarily picked just plain such for PCs.

Oddly enough, I play an archer character who's taken bowmaking, and I find the system works just dandy for me. I'm sorry that you feel that the speeds are too slow. But, for the use I get out of it, it seems pretty well-done to me.

Yeah, it might have been a little unrealistic if you know what it takes to craft something in the real world. But no worse than a hundred other issues in D&D which have been abstracted and simplified for the sake of playability!

Here's a problem - if you make it so that such things are "playable" from a PC standpoit, then what do you do about NPCs?

Imagine that your PC can whip up a masterwork weapon in a week. That means that any craftsman can whip up such weapons in about a week. Such weapons suddenly become standard, and there's nothing "masterful" about them.

Similarly for other abilities. You want completely mundane alchemy to be able to work on par with standard Wizardly magic? Well, then, what's the point of having wizards if basic common folk can match their abilities with use of a mundane skill?

You are up against a basic design plank of D&D - it isn't a skill-based system, it's class-based. The really interesting abilities are part of a class, not a skill that could in theory be taken by virtually anyone.

So, I have two words for you - Prestige Class. If you want an adventuring alchemist whos abilities match those of a wizard, make a prestige class. Don't ask that they rewrite the entire skill system to make mundane Experts able to compete with Wizards and Sorcerers.

 

[Sanackranib]

prestige masters

. . . interesting idea . . .

 

[Zogg]

pawned79 - great story, and I really mean that. But your main character - translated into DnD - would basically be a fighter or a rogue with ranks in the "profession (blacksmith)" skill. I mean, your main character didn't actually do any crafting...which is really what my beef is with. I don't want to get repetitive but my main point is that when a PC with a craft (whatever) feat sits down for several months to make (whatever), the adventure for everyone else (assuming they actually want to stay together) comes to a standstill.

So either the party stops and twiddles there thumbs or the DM is forced to make a fractured adventure. Not fun.

 

[Sanackranib]

craft times

which is the very reason why crafting should be more profitable. the spellcasters are going to stop to make items and the other PC's should be able to get well paid for their time during this downtime.

 

[Zogg]

Re: craft times

which is the very reason why crafting should be more profitable. the spellcasters are going to stop to make items and the other PC's should be able to get well paid for their time during this downtime.

My problem with this is that I don't play PCs in DnD that forever live to make a profit. My adventurers like to do just that - adventure. If someone wants to sit in town for months and make something cool - even if it turns around a 200% profit, then bah-bye. I can understand if you role-play a miserly PC or a crafty gnome PC, but my philosophy is not to find ways to make the most $$$ I can for my PC.

I'm not all about the loot. And even if I were, I would want to be more of an Indiana Jones excavation/tomb raider type PC not a boring sit by the forge all day and hammer out a sword craftsman.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: craft times

My problem with this is that I don't play PCs in DnD that forever live to make a profit. My adventurers like to do just that - adventure. If someone wants to sit in town for months and make something cool - even if it turns around a 200% profit, then bah-bye. I can understand if you role-play a miserly PC or a crafty gnome PC, but my philosophy is not to find ways to make the most $$$ I can for my PC.

I'm not all about the loot. And even if I were, I would want to be more of an Indiana Jones excavation/tomb raider type PC not a boring sit by the forge all day and hammer out a sword craftsman.

I just don't understand this.

I see 2 main situaitons.

1. The DM says X is happening now or in a week or watever, time is of the essence. Ok mr crafter tough crap we're leaving.

2. No pressing things are on the horizon, the crafter want to make somehtign, the DM says hat take Y tme, anything anyone really wants to do in Y time. No, brooop Y time has past. You not going to frickin roleplay the month of you sitting in the bar waiting, the DM waves his hands and bang the month has past.

Still I do see some problems with the system, but it works as a default, just don't stick to it fanatically. Basing the time off of cost works for 90+% of the items, the few ones it doesn't change the time.

 

[Sanackranib]

what its all about

unfortunatly you can't always find or buy what you want or need, and in the case of buying items it costs twice as much. for the cash poor game that too can be a problem. I have been in a lot of games where the pc's trust what they make more then what someone else makes. there are also those who would rather have that trusty heirloom weapon enchanted rather then switch to some other weapon simply because its magical. what it really comes down to is how fast the players want to advance the plot of the game. I have played plenty of rogue or bard types that have no problem with the time for item creation because they are useing that time to gather intel or make contacts etc.

 

[Zogg]

Re: Re: Re: craft times

I just don't understand this.

I see 2 main situaitons.

1. The DM says X is happening now or in a week or watever, time is of the essence. Ok mr crafter tough crap we're leaving.

2. No pressing things are on the horizon, the crafter want to make somehtign, the DM says hat take Y tme, anything anyone really wants to do in Y time. No, brooop Y time has past. You not going to frickin roleplay the month of you sitting in the bar waiting, the DM waves his hands and bang the month has past.

Still I do see some problems with the system, but it works as a default, just don't stick to it fanatically. Basing the time off of cost works for 90+% of the items, the few ones it doesn't change the time.

brooop?

Nice sound effects.

Seriously, you have a point. But that still doesn't solve the problem of it being a story killer. I view crafting jaunts by PCs as intermissions that are unnecessary - I mean, why does the PC have to craft this thing? Are there not people in town that can craft it in the meantime? I guess I'm too rigid on this and believe that adventurers are not craftsmen and should not be craftsmen. Craftsmen spend their entire lives at their craft and should be much better at crafting something than a PC that (upon making 12th level) wakes up one day, takes the Craft:Wand feat and says "I'm gonna make a wand!!!" I mean, how fake.