Crafting Craft Rules (DC 105?!?)

Kemrain · Apr 21, 2005

I hate it when I get so busy at work that by the time I post my message there are other replies that make me look like an idiot.

- Kemrain the Glad You Can Still Type With Your Foot In Your Mouth.

Kemrain · Apr 21, 2005

The Sigil said:
All of a sudden the thread got quiet... did I make everyone's head hurt?

--The Sigil

I will read all this.. Very carefully.. then I'll get back to you. so far, it looks very cool, but I read slow and I have work people bothering me, so it might take a little bit. Thank you for posting all that.

- Kemrain the Slow Reader.

Kemrain · Apr 21, 2005

I'm buying it!

- Kemrain the Consumer.

Now if they'll only finish my processing....

- Kemrayn the Disgruntled Consumer.

Aristotle · Apr 21, 2005

I was considering, but have since reconsidered, ditching a lot of th craft/profession type skills and adding a "trade skills" mechanic that would work similarly to trade skills in an MMO. I thought it was a neat idea that would make crafting simpler to understand and more accessible to players. But I couldn't pull it off without it feeling far too dumbed down.

Celebrim · Apr 21, 2005

Ok, I'm intriuged.

But I'm not sold. Looking over your description its not easy for me to tell how really accurate and easy to use the system is, and the sample from chapter 7 with its long long list of materials (and we only got the A's) does nothing to ease my concerns.

It sounds good in theory, but how does it actually work. Would you consider quickly walking through an example or three?

a) A 12lb rough pine wood chair suitable for the home of a upper lower class family.
b) A 1lb gold tiara, suitable for a princess
c) A 50 lb suit of plate armor (steel, proof) suitable for a knight of quality

Assume a skill check of 23, what is the final cost? How much time does it take?

And while we are on the subject of realism, what was more important for you, using values for gemstones that were realistic for historical economies, or using values for gemstones that agreed with the legacy 'Gygax' D&D pricing?

The Sigil · Apr 21, 2005

Celebrim said:
Ok, I'm intriuged.

But I'm not sold. Looking over your description its not easy for me to tell how really accurate and easy to use the system is, and the sample from chapter 7 with its long long list of materials (and we only got the A's) does nothing to ease my concerns.

It sounds good in theory, but how does it actually work. Would you consider quickly walking through an example or three?

Of course. I'll give you a rough idea of time required, too. Time is now 13:14 by my watch.

a) A 12lb rough pine wood chair suitable for the home of a upper lower class family.

Pine has a craft DC modifier of +0, and a progress check of -1 (pine is a bit difficult to work with due to its tendency to splinter). Cost is 4 sp per pound. It has a weight factor of 3/5 wood. So a 12 pound chair is like needing 20 "regular pounds" of wood.

*Whips out handy spreadsheet included with purchase, enters 20 lbs, 21 DC (a guess at making it look nice for nobility), 0.6 for weight factor, 0.4 for cost/lb, 0 for material DC adjustment, -1 for progress check, 23 for Craft Check, 5 for sum of ranks in craft skill and Int modifier*)

Answer: This will take 5 weeks to complete and has a suggested market value of 59.6 gp.

My watch now says 13:17 (and keep in mind I am typing my post too).

b) A 1lb gold tiara, suitable for a princess

I'd say suitable for a princess requires a DC of higher than 23 (the craft check you gave) but we'll use 23 for now. (take ten plus skill focus plus masterwork tools plus four ranks means an average first-level expert with no exceptional skills can get an 18 on his skill check with no problems - this tells me that most "objects d'art" with value greater than that found in the typical lower-class home should have DCs in the mid-20s to 30s - a tiara "suitable for a princess" should probably have a DC on the order of 35 - but I digress).

*enters stuff into spreadsheet*

Answer: Will take 1 week and has a suggested market value of 210 gp. Inlaying gems, et al, would cost more; this is just the tiara, with no "extra frills."

My watch tells me it's 13:19.

(Chapter 8 deals with extra frills like etching, engraving, fluting, and inlays/insets, so if I wanted to do that, I could bump up the value considerably. For instance, adding fluting (DC 20) would add 21 gp to the market price, doing one etching at a DC 20 would add another 20 gp to the market value, doing some DC 20 engraving would add another 40 gp... all three together would could push the market price up to about 300 gp and would take extra time, of course.)

c) A 50 lb suit of plate armor (steel, proof) suitable for a knight of quality

Had to step away for a moment, am back. Watch says 13:26 here.

We'll assume full plate, which has an AC bonus of +8 and thus a DC of 18 (per SRD).

*enters values into spreadsheet*

Time to complete: 55 weeks. Suggested Market Value: 600 gp.

Watch: 13:28. Now it's time to go "clean up" my post and make it more readable.

It should be noted that armor and weapons have extra "labor costs" that go into making them usable as such; a 50 pound slug of steel formed into a shape with a DC of 18 to make but no armor bonus would take 9 weeks and be worth 140 gp. In the case of the plate mail above, the "armor cost" is 28,800 labor units added to the normal "cost" of 4500 units just to shape the stuff - in other words, making it usable as armor (having all moving parts, etc.) is about five times as hard as just shaping it into a vaguely armor-shaped mass.

So it takes about 1-2 minutes per item to look up material qualities, enter them into spreadsheet, and type results here.

Reactions? High? Low?

EDIT: As to the Gygaxian question, I went with fitting them into "traditional" D&D costs. Re-pricing them would have triggered a whole 'nother set of explanations and with the book already at 144 pages, I thought that would get - um - long. Realism has to be conceded for "ease of use" somewhere, and that was one concession I made... though you'll note I tried to add a lot more gemstone varieties than are in the SRD.

--The Sigil

* NOTE: sum of Int Modifier and Ranks in craft determines labor cost under my system; skilled craftsmen charge more for labor. In all examples used 5 as sum of Int Mod and Craft Ranks; higher Int/Ranks will increase market value

The Sigil · Apr 21, 2005

The Sigil said:
EDIT: As to the Gygaxian question, I went with fitting them into "traditional" D&D costs. Re-pricing them would have triggered a whole 'nother set of explanations and with the book already at 144 pages, I thought that would get - um - long. Realism has to be conceded for "ease of use" somewhere, and that was one concession I made... though you'll note I tried to add a lot more gemstone varieties than are in the SRD.

Besides, altering material costs to fit the (realistic?) economy of your world - even only in specific areas due to scarcity - is trivially easy for a GM to do. Just change the materials cost on the spreadsheet and the result will pop out adjusted for this.

--The Sigil

Kemrain · Apr 21, 2005

The Sigil said:
Besides, altering material costs to fit the (realistic?) economy of your world - even only in specific areas due to scarcity - is trivially easy for a GM to do. Just change the materials cost on the spreadsheet and the result will pop out adjusted for this.

--The Sigil

Thank you. As soon as the PDF arrives, I'll check it out. Glad to see someone did my work for me. And it only cost me $10.

- Kemrain the Cheap. Appreciative, but Cheap.