Creating a fencing feat chain

[gpetruc]

I wanted to create a fencing feat chain for a renaissance D&D campaign (low magic, only alchemists and a variant bard) for the following reasons
1) I wanted more finesse fighting, while in the standard D&D most fighters either go sword and shield, or greatsword or some tricky exotic weapon a la spiked chain, but none of these combat models are much suited to the setting and so they should be exceptions and not the everyday rule

2) I don't want to create a Duelist core class (as it would result in too many taking that)

3) I have already a variant Aristocrat (with added feats every 3 levels after 4th) and so having a fencing feat chain would give the option of either going fighter or going aristocrat with a lesser BAB and HP but better skills and still some cool fighting

4) I don't want to simply have neary everyone going for the Duelist PrC because I tend to dislike PrC, and again it would remove variety

The main idea is that the finesse fighing should be effective in fighting against humans (most enemies would be humans, and usually civilized people that use finesse fighting too), and maybe also good for non-lethal fightts (disarming, pulling the blow to leave opponent at exactly 0 hp, ...)

So, here are my ideas for thers to critique:
Core Rules feats that take part to the chain: Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Weapon Finesse

Fencing weapons: rapier, shortsword, dagger, main-gauche.

New feats:

Fencing: the first feat of the chain. An idea is:
requires Weapon Finesse in one fencing weapon
effect: when you're fighting with a fencing weapon, in light armor, with only a tiny or smaller item in your other hand and against a humanoid creature you can add +1 to hit and a +1 dodge bonus to AC (only against that opponent). the to hit bonus applies also to disarm attempts
(in my opinion the main features of fencing should be precision, speed and evasion)

Rapid Blow
requires: fencing, dex 13+, bab 2+
effect: when fencing and doing a full attack you can make an additional attack at your maximum attack bonus, but all your attacks take a -2 penalty (a bit like rapid shot or furry of blows)

Defensive fencing
requires: fencing, expertise
effect: gives the Canny Defense bonus (int bonus to AC) when fencing (stacks with the AC bonus from fencing)

Lunge
requires: fencing, dodge, bab 4+
effect: as a standard action you can perform a lunge attack. the target has the choice of moving by 5 ft in any backwards direction (back, back left or back right) if those squares are empty without provoking AoO from you and obtaining from this a +4 to AC against this attack only, but you can move in the square he was without provoking AoO from him.
the lunge attack is done at a +2 bonus and with doubled threat range, but if he does not move and you fail your attack the opponent can make a free AoO against you
Some examples to clarify the idea that is simple even if I find some problems in explaining it
example 1: A tries a lunge attack against B. B moves one 5 ft step backwards, A advances in B's old square and the attack is resolved with a -2 bonus but still doubled threat range. there are no special effects if the attack misses
example 2: A tries a lunge attack agains B that has his back against a wall and so cannot move backwards. A makes an attack at +2 and doubled threat range. if he fails B gets an AoO against A
example 3: A tries a lunge attack against B. B thinks he will fail and decides not to move so that if A fails the attack (at +2 with doubled threat range) he gets an AoO against B
I hope these examples will make others undestand that the idea IS simple. with this feat I wanted to obtain more cinematic duels and also to give a better reason to try to put someone against a wall.

Improved Feint
requires: fencing, bluff skill, bab 2+
effect: you can make a feint as a move action instead of a standard action (bluff check opposed to sense motive. if you win opponent is flat footed against your next attack), and you get a +2 bonus to bluff and sense motive checks related to feints

Pull the blow
requires: fencing, expertise, bab 4+
effect: when an attack will reduce your opponent to less that 0 you can leave him to 0 instead

Fencing disarm
requires: fencing, expertise, improved disarm, bab 4+
effects: you have a +4 bonus to disarm attempts

Improved fencing
requires: bab 6+, fencing, dex 15+, int 13+, dodge, expertise, any one other fencing feat
effect: 1) when fencing you have a +2 bonus both to hit and AC (does not stack with fencing).
2) In addition you can use these bonuses even against two opponents.
3) when targeted by a lunge attack you can move sideways instead of only backwards (but the destination square must be empty)

Improved rapid blow
requires: improved fencing, rapid blow
effect: when you make a full attack you can make two additional attacks at your maximum attack bonus, but all attacks (including those) have a -4 penalty


Master fencing
requires: bab 10+, int 15+, dex 17+, dodge, expertise, mobility, fencing, improved fencing, any other three fencing feats
effect: 1) when fencing you have a +3 bonus to hit and AC (does not stack with fencing and improved fencing)
2) you can use your fencing bonus against any number of opponents
3) when targeted by a lunge attack you can move in any direction (but the destination square must be empty), and you can even move in your opponent's square (and he is forced to move in your square so that you exchange positions) (don't consider your opponent for deciding if the square is empty)


Any comments and critiques are welcome


Edit: corrected title in "creating a fencing feat chain[/u[

 

[Magistus71]

I wanted to create a fencing feat chain for a renaissance D&D campaign (low magic, only alchemists and a variant bard) for the following reasons
1) I wanted more finesse fighting, while in the standard D&D most fighters either go sword and shield, or greatsword or some tricky exotic weapon a la spiked chain, but none of these combat models are much suited to the setting and so they should be exceptions and not the everyday rule

You may want to pick up the Swashbuckling Adventures book, has a lot of what you may be looking for, since it tries to push the players into using a finesse weapon.

 

[ashockney]

Wow. These are really sweet.

There's also an excellent Dragon Magazine article in the last several months that breaks down class by class how you can play in a "swashbuckling" campaign, and what role each class would take up in that kind of campaign.

Here's my thoughts on what you put out (only my opinion):

Fencing - excellent

Rapid Blow - excellent

Defensive Fencing - seems a bit overpowered compared to Dodge, Expertise, and Fencing feats. I would suggest a flat bonus, or simply use Dodge and Improved Dodge feats.

Lunge - I see what you're going for...too complicated. Use a modified version of the bull rush rules that already exist.

Improved Feint - I like it. Tough, but great for Rogues. You should probably say 5 ranks in Bluff to be sure it hits where it's targeted.

Pull the Blow - seems like a waste of a feat, particularly compared to all these other great ones! I would make this a "special action" and give it a penalty to hit and to the attackers AC if it is attempted.

Fencing Disarm - you have a ton of minimum BAB requirements, you can eliminate many of them as they are "overkill" This is a good example of such an instance.

Improved Fencing - excellent

Improved Rapid Blow - hmmm...I'd like to see this one in playtest. I think it's got potential since there fencing weapons tend to be "lighter" and deal less damage, however, I'm picturing a dual-wielding, Specialized, Improved Fencing person doing upwards of 8 or 9 attacks. That could be a bit much.

Master Fencing - I'd save these kinds of abilities for a prestige class. As illustrated above, I think there will already be plenty of bonuses flying around to compensate for the lighter weapon use. There isn't much of a precedent for a feat granting more than a +2 to Hit, AC, or Damage without strong limitations or a side-effect.

 

[gpetruc]

let's try again:
Fencing Disarm
requires: Fencing, Expertise, ...
effect: when disarming, if your weapon is smaller than your opponent's weapon you get a +4 bonus

(the idea was that otherwise disarming a longsword with a dagger is nearly impossible)

Improved Rapid Blow
(of course it does not stack with rapid blow; at maximum you can add two attacks and not three. anyway for clarity I'll add it to the description of the feat)
Actually I hand't considered the possibility of fighting with two weapons in combo with this. (originally I had a feat for dual weapon fencing, but I trashed it).

I was inspired by the fact that in Star Wars you could easily have additional ranged attacks with a -2 penalty: with rapid shot and a simple gun you had -2/-2 or -6/-6/-6; with another feat (for a total of 3) you had -2/-2 or -4/-4/-4 or (with a repeating weapon) -6/-6/-6/-6. (and still it wasn't broken)

Another option would be to make the 2nd added attack at -5 (a bit like Improved TWF but with one weapon only) or raising the penalty to -6 instead of -4

iMaster fencing
The idea was to probably go without a PrC for fencing. Also, this feat requires 8 feats, BAB 10+, good stats and it was to be the "state of the art".


Defensive fencing
It would be more balanced if I made it applicable only to the enemies you are fencing against, and not making it stack with Fencing (and so reducing by one the bonus) ?

For Improved Dodge I usually let my players declare the opponent they are dodging when the attack is declared (otherwise most of the time we all forget of that feat), and so Improved Dodge is nearly automatic (Considering the rarity of magical armor in my future low magic campaign I might even replace it with Dexterous Dodge or Improved Dodge)

I've seen now in the NetBook the Fencing Stance feat that requires only Weapon Finesse and gives a +2 dodge bonus (that stacks with everyting else). So (considering that fighters with more than a +4 int would still be rare even in the renaissance), the new version could probably be balanced.

Lunge
Actually, supposing you have a combat board with the 5 ft squares marked (even a normal chessboard might fit) it shouldn't be too difficult to apply this. Anyway I'll try and see if it's boring to use or not.

Pull the Blow
The main aim of this feat was to be able to drop down enemies without killing them (useful in duels and in town areas) and thus avoiding law problems. (there was something similar in the netbook)
Maybe changing it so that
1) you can choose the damage you make (up to the damage you have rolled, down to a minimum of 1)
(good in "first blood" duels, or for intimidating, or even for training)
2) you can also decide to bring him to -1 but stable (as it was in the netbook)
3) giving also the option to scar your opponent (on a successful critical, for example, but maybe only on a normal hit or better on a threat) (a little scar on the face to make him immediatly recognizable, maybe 1 temporary damage to charisma also)
In this way maybe it could be good (expecially since many times not killing the opponent would give you some advance) and a bit cooler. (a la zorro)

 

[ashockney]

Fencing Disarm - Yeah, I like this version even better, too.

Improved Rapid Blows - One main difference between Star Wars and DnD is the stacking up of all the bonuses (high str, enhancement bonuses, morale bonuses, luck bonuses, etc.) I won't say that it makes "rolling to hit" obsolete, but a simple -2 doesn't really significantly hinder attacks at higher levels. I would strongly suggest not using this at all, or if you are really insistent, build in that it must be done one-handed weapon fighting only, with a -6/-6/-6. You can always make it tougher, later.

Master Fencing - Wow, 8 feats. That certainly fits the bill of a "strong limitation". I'd probably yank the BAB requirement, and you could use that as is. I will re-iterate, however, that one of the ways that 3rd Edition tends to balance itself is through the use of Prestige Classes. For example, requiring 8 feats, in and of itself, limits this feat to only be available to fighters or multi-class fighters. If you make it part of prestige class, even a five level prestige class, you can establish more realistic requirements, that still match the "flavor" you're looking for...and could be achieved through multiple channels (ie, fighters, rangers, barbs, bards, rogues, and multi-class combos of the above...)

Defensive Fencing - I still feel strongly that this is too powerful an ability for a feat, particularly in comparison to other comparable feats. For your campaign it sounds fine. In general, however (ie, in the hands of min/max'ers) it would be destined for abuse.

Lunge and Pull the Blow - That sounds fine. I merely mention that compared to all the other excellent feats you developed, which should see publication, these two feats seem to add mostly flavor.

 

[Drift]

you may be intrested in the fighting style article in the backara forum.
http://mortality.net/board/read.php?TID=4834#37059

the example style was inspired by your early and underpowered set of feats I believe.

I agree with ashockey opnion that defensive fencing is perhaps to powerful perhaps adding to the prerequisite may be an idea.

Fencing Disarm
requires: Fencing, Expertise, ...
effect: when disarming, if your weapon is smaller than your opponent's weapon you get a +4 bonus

perhaps simply stating that the weapons are treated equally in size. this then becomes a bonus and a hindrence.

 

[gpetruc]

Another idea:
Removing Master Fencing and Improved Rapid Blow from normal feats

Adding a "Fencing Master" PrC with 5 levels that have the Improved Rapid Blow (maybe at lvl 3, only when using a single weapon, and with the second additional attack at -5;so that instead of +11/+6/+1 you can have +9/+9/+4/+4/-1, or maybe even +7/+7/+2/+2/-3) and Master Fencing (at lvl 5).

Still I need some ideas for designing the rest of the class (I'm not that used to PrC)

I thought:

HP: d10 (or d8) ?
BAB: +1/level
SAVES: fort, ref good. (or maybe only ref ?)
Skills points: 4 sp/level
Class skills: as fighter + bluff, sense motive and tumble, balance.

Requires: Improved Fencing (and all it's prerequisites), BAB 7+ ?

1 Fencing feat at level 1

Other abilities ?

edit: fixed the attack bonuses

 

[ashockney]

I like the idea of a prestige class a ton.

HD: d10
BAB: +1/lvl
Save: Ref
Skill: 2+ (class = fighter+bluff, tumble, balance)

Pre-req's are tricky, you want it to be accessible to several classes, so if you but a BAB in there it should be fairly low. I could see +7, as well.

Abilities should be available at each level, with at least one stacking ability (perhaps a dodge bonus to AC when fencing, that grows from 1st - 5th level).

 

[gpetruc]

First writeup. I feel is a little overpowered with the d10 and so I put back the d8 (a bit more roguish)
For the prereqs I'm still undecided. Bab 6+ is already required in Improved Fencing, I put 7+ just because I like that number more.

HD: d8
BAB: +1/lvl
Save: reflex good
Skills: 2 skill points/level
Class Skills: fighter skills + bluff, tumble and balance

Requires: Improved Fencing, BAB 7+

Lvl 1: Side step, Quick (+1)
Lvl 2: Multiple fencing, Precise Attack +1
Lvl 3: Improved Rapid Blow
Lvl 4: Forward skip, Quick (+2)
Lvl 5: Precise Attack +2

Quick: when fencing you can add +1 dodge bonus to your AC. The bonus improves to +2 at level 4
Side step: When targeted by a lunge attack you can move in any adiacent free square except the one your opponent is in.
Forward skip: When targeted by a lunge attack you can make a Tumble check DC 20. If you succeed you can move in the square your opponent is in (and he must move in the square you where) and gain the benefits of having moved against a lunge attack.
Multiple fencing: you can fence against any number of opponents within reach
[BPrecise Attack[/B]: you can add this bonus either to attacks or to damage when fencing.
(from Star Wars d20)
Improved Rapid Blow: when fencing with a single weapon and using the Rapid Blow feat you can make also an additional attack at you maximum modified attack bonus -5. The penalty is still the same -2 to all attacks from Rapid Blow (you cannot use this ability unless you have the Rapid Blow feat)

Critiques ?

 

[Morgenstern]

First writeup. I feel is a little overpowered with the d10 and so I put back the d8 (a bit more roguish)
For the prereqs I'm still undecided. Bab 6+ is already required in Improved Fencing, I put 7+ just because I like that number more.

HD: d8
BAB: +1/lvl
Save: reflex good

All look good.

Requires: Improved Fencing, BAB 7+

Skills: 2 skill points/level
Class Skills: fighter skills + bluff, tumble and balance

I would strive to get the class working with 4 points/level, and see if you can't shave off a few fighter skills. Would also double check the bard class' list, as they seemed like they might be aspiring swashbucklers at one point. You might want a lower BAB- so rogues and bards can get in sooner, and so the tank-like fighter hansn't gotten set in his ways before he has a chance to try this out .

Lvl 1: Side step, Quick (+1)
Lvl 2: Multiple fencing, Precise Attack +1
Lvl 3: Improved Rapid Blow
Lvl 4: Forward skip, Quick (+2)
Lvl 5: Precise Attack +2

Quick: when fencing you can add +1 dodge bonus to your AC. The bonus improves to +2 at level 4

Rather than keying this to fencing, I'd limit it to unencumbered and in light or no armor. just because you are weaponless, doesn't sound like you'd lose this bonus.

Side step: When targeted by a lunge attack you can move in any adiacent free square except the one your opponent is in.

Again, too narrow of phrasing. Would have it triger on any melee attack in which your attacker is not adjacent to you at the begining of his attack action. Further, you might need some sort of Reflex save to take this action (DC equal to attack roll?), since if you step back, you may be out of the attackers reach, effectively canceling his attack...

Forward skip: When targeted by a lunge attack you can make a Tumble check DC 20. If you succeed you can move in the square your opponent is in (and he must move in the square you where) and gain the benefits of having moved against a lunge attack.

Broaden funtionality again. Seems like a fine move to respond to a bull rush, or even a grapple attempt.

Multiple fencing: you can fence against any number of opponents within reach
[BPrecise Attack: you can add this bonus either to attacks or to damage when fencing.
(from Star Wars d20)
Improved Rapid Blow: when fencing with a single weapon and using the Rapid Blow feat you can make also an additional attack at you maximum modified attack bonus -5. The penalty is still the same -2 to all attacks from Rapid Blow (you cannot use this ability unless you have the Rapid Blow feat)[/quote]

The rest of these look servicable .

Critiques ?

Very nice feats. Might adjust Pull the Blow, into something more like 'Mercy' with the non-killing option, and maybe can inflict subdual damage without the ussual -4 penalty when weilding fencing weapons.

Finally, would addapt the whole scaring trick inot an entirely separate feat, that on a threat you may forgo rolling to confirm the critical and your normal damage to instead inflict 1 point of temporary Cha damage. Max damage inflicted at one time to an opponent equal to your Dex mod or something.

Other fencing terms you might find helpful- Potnando~ a hop, followed by a lunge, and a balestra~ which is a short run ending in a lungle (you can make a half charge with fencing weapons ?).

You might also want something for those fencers so cool they can fight two people a once- a feat that cancels out the +2 bonus attackers get while flanking, with a follow on feat that gives you immunity to flanking it you havee your fencing weapon drawn and are aware of your attackers.

I always recomend watching the Mask of Zorro again for ideas about high level fencing types .