Creating An OGC Setting

[Yair]

For some reason one post got lost in translation. I'll try to resurrect it.

I like this idea. I like the maps. Instead of having the creatures off on an island how about having the down on the lower left area (fire mts) and that city at 13 'stands eternal watch that no hordes of evil may ever escape' (except for the occasional one for the adventurers to beat up on ).

I like the guardian motiff, and having more foes nearby can never hurt. I like.

I prefer my clerics worshiping gods. But that's me.

No, it's not just you.
While I liked the idea of warring philosphies, it is ultimately too esoteric to serve for a generic setting.

As for the gods I'd base them loosely of ancient religions (greek, egyptian, norse, etc). If you look at those religions there seem to be some core concepts. Weather, death, fire, life, sun. Cover these. Give them names. Set them up with some history. Congrats you have a pantheon.

I wouldn't blatantly base things on real-world history. Personally, I'm almost revolted by clear depictions of real-world cultures (or faiths) in my D&D, they feel out of place and forced.
I would certainly be amenable to using real-world religious ideas in depicting our world's religons, however. (Note to self: add "writing up a real-world cult to clarify" to my to-do list.)
As for covering the basic archetypes, sure. Beginning with the deities presented in the PH.

The creatures still come from another continent. However, they have been sending "seeds" with eggs from many of their species with the ocean current that wash up on the coast of that lower left area, and now that area is almost overrun with them...

I don't like the "seeds" concept, especially given that they should hold many species.
How about portals linking the two realms? Perhaps as a war strategy, or as a result of a magical accident.

For example, I have this really cool image of a Cuthbert-esque deity who's missing legs and is fused to his own throne.

That's a cool image, but we shouldn't be afraid to use it regardless of our cosmological fluff.

I like Phil's other idea, that each wizard is a 'reincarnated' demiplane, but it isn't very generic. What if each wizard could access their own demiplane, moulded in their image and with their priorities?

Yes, I like this variant more.
I'd see the demiplane as a construct of the wizard's mind, a reflection of his soul, a microcosm created in his own image.

The idea that every cleric is their own god is an interesting one, but probably doesn't fit the framework of the setting. What if we had clerics of many different things, for example:
1. 'Human'ists
2. Standard-god worshippers
3. Totemists
4. Animists
5. 'Small God'-worshippers (very specific, low-powered gods)
6. Hero worshippers (a la the Ancient Greeks)
7. Different philosophies
8. Themselves
9. The planes
10. Outsiders

I agree with Turnail that different classes could better represent Animist, Totemists, and so on.
I also agree with you that we need to have diverse clerics, worshipping many types of "deities".
Turnail's model suggests Psionics as pro-human "racists", standard god worshippers (and plane worshippers) as the regular clerics, and philosophy worshipping as the Blasphemy. I'd jot up worshipping oneself as an extreme Nietzian or solipsism philosophy.
I'd say this is largely enough, except perhaps Hero and Ancestor worship; still thinking on how to accomodate that.

I have a few cultures I've made and haven't used, and I'll try and dredge them up for you.

Good.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I think this is a good idea (and I like the name). It creates a possibility for tension on all scales, at the DMs control.
I would seek an "evil version" of each of these two world powers, with hidden black resources and apalling secrets. All optional, so the DM can choose what to take and what not to.

There is no need to make them "wholly evil". Just empathize that while there are political leaders on both sides who are good and decent people, there are others who are far more... ruthless. Who have "special projects" seeking magic artifacts and creating magic "super-weapons". Who order assassinations of their enemies. Who blackmail people on their own side who are "too soft". All "for the good of the nation". And even the "good guys" will have to make moral compromises in a climate like this.

Ideally, both sides should have some moral stances and ideals that most of us can agree with - but both sides should have people who secretly betray those ideals for the sake of expediency. This creates the possibility for some great stories of intrigue and betrayals, and offers the chances for the PCs to be confronted with moral dlimmas.

One thing I have been thinking off is that one famous military unit of one side is an order of paladins. This order is universally adored by the populace and is great for morale. But its leader "snapped" a few years ago and massacred prisoners after a personal tragedy, and lost his paladin powers in the process. Some of the country's political leaders have realized this, and conspired to keep his new, fallen status secret through magical means, because the morale of the country would suffer a terrible blow if this came to light. The low-ranking members of the order are still paladins and don't suspect a thing, but the leadership is slowly becoming more corrupt...

None of the politicians should be exactly what they seem. All should have secrets and hidden agendas...

This suggests two regions to focus on, IMO: two to four states in the northeastern continent, where skirmishes abound and can escalate into open warfare; and one or two states in the buffer zone between the two world powres, trying to live through the storm.

I think we should have some more than those. I mean both NATO and the Warshaw Pact at he height of the Cold War had lots of members.

I'd say that we should have a dozen major countries or so that have aligned themselves with one side or another (in other words, five to seven on each side), and slightly less than that who haven't, not counting a larger number of city-states and small fiefdoms who either support one of the sides or are trying hard to remain neutral.

And note that countries within one alliance don't neccessarily have to like each other - all it matters is that they have some sort of incentive for joining their respective alliance...

Another question: What area size should the whole map represent? That will tell us how big we can make the kingdoms...

I am not sure how this coincides with more regular adventures, however. Like a monster attacking a village, dungeoncrawling, and so on.

Well, the monsters and dungeons won't go away just because there is political intrigue going on - there is no reason why these things shouldn't still be possible. All this setup does is provide additional opportunities for adventures.

And this setup also allows some additional twists for classical adventures. Perhaps the monster was released by the other side to weaken defenses and morale. Or perhaps some ruthless politicians on one's own side were responsible to make it seem like the other side did it, thus making people outraged and even more eager to support the war.

Or let's say that the PCs are hired to retrieve a magical artifact out of a dungeon. Maybe it will be useful in the war! But then agents of the other side might show up and try to get it for themselves! And if they discover that their patron didn't tell them all the details about the artifact, and they realize that it allows its user to summon powerful demons and undead - will they still turn it over and live with the burden on their conscience once they see the horrible use it is being put to? Or will they try to destroy it, making some powerful enemies in the process?

Politics can make a bad situation worse. And of course, adventures thrive on bad situations...

 

[Yair]

Religions: My Suggestion

Another lost reply.

I like the ideas very much.

In this world, the deities (including demon princes and archomentals) rule the world through their agents (priests and others) and their churches. There is, as a result, many struggles of cults angainst churches, of evil gods against good ones, etc. See, the traditional stuff. (BTW: the gods are closely based on that of Greyhawk - default PHB 3e deities, but with different or generic names, like "God of the Sun" for Pelor.)

I would agree, but - at the risk of repeating myself - keep the deities more aloof. It isn't the gods that act, it is their mighty proxies (archangels, archfiends, and so on).
I am against the generic names ideas; we'll need to come up with a panthoen, not a generic one. I'm all for epithets that make clear who is who, though: "Mithros, the Unconquered Son" or so on.

1) Wizards. Originally, all magic was wielded by priests. But some individuals finally got the mean to obtain (steal?) magic/spells without the gods, and thus arcane spellcasters appeared. Nowadays they are tolerated in some places (especially if they worship a deity overseeing magic) but feared and hunted down in other places.

I like it, although I'd make them not thieves. Wizards simply discovered how to access their mircrocosm, and draw upon its powers.

2) The Scarlet Brotherhood. (Needs another name, but you see the idea.) Several monastery (usually well hidden) of psionic-users and monks, who draw their supernatural powers from within through arduous training. They are evil, organized into a brotherhood, and of course are opposed to the gods. However, there have been a few renegades among their order, who rebelled against their evil ways and betrayed; as such, some independant psions/monks of different alignments exist, but are very rare and don't have any organizations of their own (they usually are wanderers who flee persecutions from the brotherhood). The Scarlet Brotherhood is shunned by the churches because of the danger it represents rather than for dogma reasons.

I'm definitely liking this idea. I think having them as Elans works well
I would say the clerics would consider them anathema due to their dogma as well, though, not just their dangerous nature.

3) The Blasphemy. Two or three centuries ago, a priest of some deity abandoned his faith when he got the idea to become a deity of his own rather than follow/serve one. This character became the most powerful mortal in the world (min. 30th level epic character). He is seen as evil (whatever may be his real alignment) and an abomination by all churches, who would like to destroy him. However, in response he corrupted many priests who got the idea like him to become their own deities (taking the appropriate prestige class). Hence, this is seen as the worlst heresy and blasphemy and is universally reviled by all religions and cults. Witch-hunters are sent after such blasphemers, yet this doesn't prevent powerful priests to betray their faith and try to become gods of their own... Just to note: currently nobody has actually become a god, even while the original priest to do that may be close to it...

Excellent.
I am thinking of the Blesphamer as a Chatic-Neutral person of high Epic level, traveling in the world in various disguses corrupting clerics. Mechanically, an atonement spell would suffice to "convert" a willing target, I think.
I'm not sure how it fits with the whole planes-as-gods motiff.

Other than that, I suggest to include a Knight Templars order, Church Knights of some LG religion, with many fortresses, crusaders, etc., and whose elite knights are paladins.

Frankly, I'm not at all sure how holy warriors which are clerics are different in-game from holy warriors that are paladins.

 

[Yair]

There is no need to make them "wholly evil". Just empathize that while there are political leaders on both sides who are good and decent people, there are others who are far more... ruthless. Who have "special projects" seeking magic artifacts and creating magic "super-weapons". Who order assassinations of their enemies. Who blackmail people on their own side who are "too soft". All "for the good of the nation". And even the "good guys" will have to make moral compromises in a climate like this.

Ideally, both sides should have some moral stances and ideals that most of us can agree with - but both sides should have people who secretly betray those ideals for the sake of expediency. This creates the possibility for some great stories of intrigue and betrayals, and offers the chances for the PCs to be confronted with moral dlimmas.

One thing I have been thinking off is that one famous military unit of one side is an order of paladins. This order is universally adored by the populace and is great for morale. But its leader "snapped" a few years ago and massacred prisoners after a personal tragedy, and lost his paladin powers in the process. Some of the country's political leaders have realized this, and conspired to keep his new, fallen status secret through magical means, because the morale of the country would suffer a terrible blow if this came to light. The low-ranking members of the order are still paladins and don't suspect a thing, but the leadership is slowly becoming more corrupt...

None of the politicians should be exactly what they seem. All should have secrets and hidden agendas...

Alright, I see what you mean now more clearly.
The thing is, this is a lot of work focused on the two chief nations. I was thinking of starting off with the periphary, leaving the center with just some overview and some vague hints at horrible evil that lies beneath.

I think we should have some more than those. I mean both NATO and the Warshaw Pact at he height of the Cold War had lots of members.

I wasn't talking about the allegiance, I was talking about the area to focus on. The number of states in each side should be large, the area we are focusing in on should be far smaller.

Another question: What area size should the whole map represent? That will tell us how big we can make the kingdoms...

Not sure yet, but I'm leaning towards "Really Huge".
I still want to do the ecology bit, it just takes me a lot of time...

 

[Yair]

Corssposted from another thread:

In an attempt to come to terms with some sensible ecology, I took advantage of my university’s library and skimmed Ecology, 83(11), 2002, pp. 3003-3013 (The Effect of Prey and Predator Densities on Wolf Populations, John A. Vucetich, Rolf O. Peterson, and Carrie L. Schaefer). The paper contrasts various ecological models with hard data, obtained in from 1971 to 2001 at the Isle Royale National Park (Michigan, USA), a 544 sq.km. island in Lake Superior.

The data clearly shows that a constant kill rate (linear prey dependent model) is totally off, but even more complex models don’t really capture the process. Nevertheless, some useful values can be determined.
In the 1980’s the population dropped rapidly from 50 wolves to around 12. Focusing on the healthier more populated period, it is clear that kill rate remained mostly at around 0.5 kills per wolf per month (although it varied significantly). More importantly, we have around 40 to 50 wolves (74 to 92 per 1000 sq. km.), and about 1000 moose (1.8 per sq. km), a ratio of about 4.5%. The article notes that the minimum amount of moose required to support a minimal (4-strong) pack is somehwere between 82 and 163, a ratio of 2.5 to 4.9%; of the same scale, speaking as a physicist.

In D&D terms, a wolf is a Medium animal, and while the SRD does not contain moose but Silver Marches lists Elk as Large. I am sure that the numbers can vary wildly, but under typical conditions it would seem a ratio of about 4.5% Medium predators to Large prey (in biomass) is appropriate, which implies a ratio of 18% predators to prey of equal Size. A ratio of less than 10% should be explained by magic, and one in excess of 40% would mean a very inefficient predator (which could be made much mor plausible with an active scavenger population).
It would also make sense to have something like 2 Large sized herbivores per square kilometer, multiplied a few times surely for more esoteric herbivores in the area.
This is in Michigan, and the island seems to be a fairly typical Temperate Forest environemt. I haven’t considered how to modify all these numbers for other environments. Yet.

 

[Nellisir]

I'm interested, BUT...

People need to be careful of overthinking it. Enthusiasm will be low if people get slapped down for going one manticore over the limit in an area. Don't sweat the small stuff.

That aside, the whole planes/clerics/wizards thing is very cool. There are a number of arcane spells that create extradimensional spaces and can be tied into this -- why should rope trick create a generic extradimensional room when it can access the wizard's "personal" plane instead, and without any mechanical changes to the spell?

Also, the Material Plane itself probably can empower certain divine spellcasters beyond druids -- animists or totemists, possibly.

Nell.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I'm interested, BUT...

People need to be careful of overthinking it. Enthusiasm will be low if people get slapped down for going one manticore over the limit in an area. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Precisely. I've already worked with predator-prey models in my job, and they can get hideously complex - and like I said, no one of us will get a Ph.D. out of this.

Both predator and prey animals will fluctuate widely, especially if you have more than one type of predator preying on the same prey. There is no such thing as a "stable population" - there are up and down cycles for every species. If in doubt, excess predator populations can always be written off as a statistical fluke. Besides, I haven't seen any RPG setting that specifies the exact number of monsters that can be found in any given area - only their type. Eyeballing it by saying: "There seem to be too many monsters in that region" and adjusting things accordingly should be enough for our purposes.


Besides, in the end only one number counts: The number of monsters that the PCs encounter...

 

[Yair]

Both predator and prey animals will fluctuate widely, especially if you have more than one type of predator preying on the same prey. There is no such thing as a "stable population" - there are up and down cycles for every species. If in doubt, excess predator populations can always be written off as a statistical fluke. Besides, I haven't seen any RPG setting that specifies the exact number of monsters that can be found in any given area - only their type. Eyeballing it by saying: "There seem to be too many monsters in that region" and adjusting things accordingly should be enough for our purposes.

I'm not some ecology nazi, guys. It's just that I don't really have an idea on how to eyeball things, so I'm digging in to get one (and, in so doing, educating myself - which is always fun). I'm certainly not about to chastize anyone for having one too many manticore. Or a thousand. At most I'll suggest that having a hundred manticores living off an area that cannot support 10 sheep is not normal, and should deserve some explanation.

That aside, the whole planes/clerics/wizards thing is very cool. There are a number of arcane spells that create extradimensional spaces and can be tied into this -- why should rope trick create a generic extradimensional room when it can access the wizard's "personal" plane instead, and without any mechanical changes to the spell?

Also, the Material Plane itself probably can empower certain divine spellcasters beyond druids -- animists or totemists, possibly.

Good thinking. I like the rope trick being a gate to the wizard's own plane. Nice.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Regarding the wizard/demiplane thing:

Souls of normal people merge with the plane of their deity after death. Souls of wizards become demiplanes after death. But there are things out there that prey on demiplanes, so some demiplanes merge with each other for protection...

I just like the idea that becoming a wizard means doing something unnatural with your soul There is a price to be paid for that power...

And since elves tend to be "more magical" than other races, perhaps the demiplanes of elven wizards tend to naturally cluster to a "racial plane", the godhead of the entire elven race. It's not a "deity" in the human sense of the word, but it is a representation of all that elves are and ever will be, and it is capable of granting divine spells...

 

[Yair]

Yet more on Ecology

Sorry, I just want to get some baseline. Please free to ignore my ramblings.

I'm going to assume a prey/predator weight ratio of 5% as the population's carrying capacity, that is to say I'm gonna assume the (direct) predator's combined weight is 5% of the harbivores population's weight. It seems more than the Isle Royale carrying capacity, but I'll ignore that. Just a round, a bit large, figure to work with.
Predators higher up the food chain would, of course, prey also on the lower predators.
Each predator should get some 1-5% from its prey.
Certain predators should work at greater efficiency. A frost worm might only "count" at 1/10th its weight, a dragon at 1/50th. This applies especially to reptiles and vermin, which should generally work at x10 efficiency when compared to mammal predators. Dinosaurs seem to work at around x5 efficiency.

I'll write down the Temperate Forest environment properly to demonstrate what I want to gain from all this hassle. It should take me a day or two.

Yair