Creating ECL creatures using FCTF !!!

[Cheiromancer]

Yes, that is correct. The 16th level hero will only be able to get con bonuses for 9 of his hit dice.

[edit- changed my mind- con bonus costs 1 HP per hit dice. See below]

 

[Forrester]

It occurs to me that if the Hero doesn't get BAB, he wouldn't just be able to spend 48 Hero Points to get +16 to BAB . . . for the exact same reason.

Hmmmmmm.

Having to keep track of how many HD the Hero gets to add his Con bonus too seems "off" to me, I have to say, but I'm not sure what a better fix might be.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It also occurs to me that my sample 4th level fighter/16th level hero could not legally spend 32 points for Con bonuses.

Maybe the price of a "+Con modifier to hit points" should be the same as a "+Int modifier to skill points"? After all, one hero point will get you either +2 hp, or +2 skill points.

In which case I think I'll adopt your idea that the hero not get any save bonuses. Then the alt.hero will look like this:

d4 hit dice
no con bonus
no skill points
poor BAB
no saving throw progression
8 HP per level

Now, what does that do for poor Ogry? It costs him another 6 HP for saving throws, and that will definitely push him into an 8th level of hero. But then he gets a +1 to BAB that he doesn't need. So a low 8th.

I toyed with the idea of eliminating the BAB too, but that makes it hard to pay for a fighter's BAB. But creatures with lots of powers and a poor BAB progression (like undead) will probably need to have points of BAB bought back.

 

[Cheiromancer]

For making monsters, consider the following "class":

monster
d2 hit dice
no con bonus
no skills or skill bonus
no BAB
no saves
10 hero points per level

Don't apply the rank limitations for BAB and hit points.

 

[Cheiromancer]

For making characters, we have

d4 hit dice
no con bonus
no skills or skill bonus
poor BAB
no saves
8 hero points per level.

Adding the Intelligence Modifier to base skill points costs 1 point/ level. (Prerequisite: at least 2 skill points per level.)

Adding the Constitution Modifier to hit dice costs 1 point/level.

*new*- +1 level of spellcasting costs 3 hero points.

 

[RangerWickett]

No, a new level of a spellcasting class should cost 7 Hero Points.

Compare:

Sorcerer get poor BAB, only good Will, d4 hp, 2 sp/level.

Hero gets all the same thing, but has a worse will save, and fewer skill points (namely, none).

Over the course of 20 levels, making up the Will save and skill point difference costs 22 Hero Points. Add in an extra 2 skill points for the summon familiar ability. That's 24 skill points over the course of 20 levels. So that leaves about 7 Hero Points each level to make up the cost of spellcasting.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ah! But the version of hero I'm using doesn't get any saves, nor the con bonus per hit dice. You have to pay for them separately.

I also used a wizard as the base, instead of a sorcerer. Wizards have a more regular spell progression.

Skills: 20 points for base 2, another 20 for +int bonus/level
hp: 20 points for +con bonus/level
saves: 24 points total (12 for will, 6 for fort and ref)
bonus feats: 8 (or 10, depends on whether you count the initial scribe scroll- 1st level abilities tend to be kinda screwy).
familiar advancement: 10 or so?

Grand total: about 100. So 20 levels of spellcasting is worth 60 points. Voila! Each level is worth 3 hero points.

I think it is a nice symmetry: with the earlier analysis of the fighter a cost of 3 HP per +1 BAB worked well. It is nice that the salient ability of the wizard works out the same.

 

[Forrester]

Ranger hasn't addressed the point directly, so I'll come right out an ask him:

1) What do you think of the goofing with the Hero class on the part of Chiero and myself? You said somewhere that you thought the Hero class might be a little underpowered, but when we do the fighter-calculations, at least with three points per BAB, it turns out to be overpowered. Quite overpowered, in some cases. I came up with a suggested fix, and Chiero then did as well (an even more draconian one, IMO). The point was to better handle the

"Who cares if I only get a d4 for HD, I have a Con that kicks ass!" problem.

But these are pretty heavy tweaks. Do you agree that the Hero needs tweaks like that (in 3E), or it's just that Fighters are inherently underpowered, or . . . what?

2) How would you price a point of BAB in the Hero system?

3) What do you think of the idea, re playing around with the "Large" template, of simply making the costs of some abilities (like strength boosts) cost double after a certain point?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[RangerWickett]

*uncomfortable* See, designers hate to admit they've made flaws. Publishers like doing it even less, because then people wonder why they bought the book in the first place, if it wasn't "finished."

I'll admit that FCTF could probably use a lot of tweaks, and that the playtesting done by those who have bought the product has brought that point out clearly. I don't want those who bought the book to think that they're just getting shoddy work. Quite the contrary, FCTF was the result of 4 months of work, far more than we had planned, but on our own, we never could have playtested it to a full balance. Beyond a certain point, you just accept something as good, because you've been working on it for so long.

Seeing people like you on this thread tear apart the rules and make, what at first glance I'd say are, improvements, is really cool. I know that a lot of people might begrudge us that we didn't nail it on our own, but hopefully they won't hold it against us if the final result is as good as we can get.

We plan to make some updates when the Big Book of Superpowers comes out. In addition to posting errata, we might make a few adjustments, and . . . eh, well, I hope it goes over well with the consumers. We're confident that overall the rules are great for what they were intended, but we do admit that we're not perfect, so hopefully you won't take it as an insult if we accept your advice.

Now, it's kinda late here, so I won't get into much detail, but yeah, we're going to consider ways to go over the level caps. And a bunch of other stuff. Basically, if it's been posted on these boards, and the search software can find it, we'll address your concern. Please, though, give us some feedback to let us know how you'll take it if we make any changes.

 

[Cheiromancer]

[fanboy]

In case it wasn't clear, I think your rules are fantastic!

If they weren't so good, we wouldn't be trying to do so much with them. I mean, we're using them as an ECL calculator for monster PC races, *and* as a class-generator engine, in addition as a set of super-hero rules.

None of these tasks are trivial. In fact, they are extremely difficult. Lots of people have spent lots of time trying to design a system that does even one of these things. Your system appears capable of doing all three- albeit with a little tinkering.

FCTF is easily the best value I've got with an RPG purchase in the last year. I've had more fun with the rules and ideas with it than I have with any other three products.

But one of the ways I have fun with a rules supplement is to tinker with the rules. Make up new feats, new spells, new prestige classes, new house rules. It's not to say that a particular supplement is lacking, but rather that it inspires such creativity that I just have to add to it.

So don't feel bad if 4CTF has areas in which it can improve. Feel proud. It is an uber-kewl product, and I hope for more of the same from Natural 20 press!

[/fanboy]