Creating Epic Level Magic Items seems kinda pricey

[Otterscrubber]

I know epic items are better than pre-epic items, but 10x better? Even if you scrape together the money, the xp requirements will destroy anyone who is not 80th level. Seems like the designers wanted to put creating things out of the PCs hands. Has anyone played epic 20-30th and maybe beyond who can verify this? I mean actually played, not just said "Hey, lets make 35th level characters with all the gold in the universe already?" I'd like to know how this worked out. Thanks for any input.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, there are Feats like Magical Artisan that'd reduce the cost a bit. Plus, there are always the alternate rules for Power Components if your DM allows it; he could say that if you go to Mount Doom to forge your ring and use the long-forgotten Ore of Eternity (acquiring this would be several adventures in its own right) as the material, the XP cost is cut in half. And so on.

But, to answer your question, I've never seen the x10 Epic item creation multiplier work well. It's always ended up being prohibitive enough that the DM either needed to let them use special materials to lower the XP cost, or just deny it outright.

What I don't like is that it's so... discontinuous. An item whose book value would be 190k is still 190k, but add just a little bit more power and suddenly it jumps by an order of magnitude? Why couldn't they just have required a special Epic-level Feat?

Since this is the House Rules forum, let's find a better way. For example, what if you did it stepwise:

First, add up the cost of all the abilities to get the Item Value (IV).

The first 200k of IV counts as normal towards Market Price. Non-Epic characters can't exceed this range, and Epic item abilities can't be used.

The second 200k of IV counts x2 towards Market Price, so an item with IV = 400k will have a Market Price of 600k (300k GP cost, 24k XP cost). Additionally, any item in this range can use at most one Power Component. Power Components are rare, inherently magical materials not found in any stores, acquisition of which is almost always an adventure in its own right.
Using a Power Component allows the creator to substitute GP for XP at a 10:1 ratio, to a maximum of 10k XP, but the item's XP cost can't go below 8k (the maximum cost of a non-Epic item) this way. This extra GP cost isn't for the exotic material itself (which is priceless), it's for the other rare materials that have to be used to work it, or that must be fitted with it.

(Example: I'm making an epic bow, and as part of the group's loot we received a branch from the Great Tree of the Goddess of Nature. Using its wood will lower the XP cost, but I now can't string it with any old string, I need something rare and special, which will cost more. And, I can't whittle the wood down with any old knife.)

At the DM's discretion, he could say that these Power Components MUST be used, that Epic items simply can't be made without them. Also, the DM can set a max XP for each Power Component; some might be better than others, and the 10k could just be an average.

Each additional 200k of IV increases the multiplier by 1 and allows one additional Power Component to be used. I didn't put a cap on this, so if an item goes above 2 million GP in IV, the multiplier exceeds x10, and if it's above 4 million GP, it'll actually be more expensive than before. I suppose you could cap it at a nice number like x5 or x10.

So, if the item had abilities worth 700k, it'd have a Market Price of (200 + 400 + 600 + 400 = ) 1600k GP, with a creation cost of 800k GP and 64k XP. The creator could use up to three Power Components to change this to 1100k GP and 34k XP. Much better than the 7000k (3500k GP + 280k XP) the Epic rules would require, right?

 

[Nightfall]

My advice for crafting epic level armors, research a nice true ritual.

 

[Zad]

It's crazy expensive, yes. But honestly I think you have to look at it as a guideline more than anything. Epic items will probably not be scattered about willy-nilly, and therefore you can establish circumstances for them coming into your wolrd case by case.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It's crazy expensive, yes. But honestly I think you have to look at it as a guideline more than anything. Epic items will probably not be scattered about willy-nilly, and therefore you can establish circumstances for them coming into your wolrd case by case.

Except that PCs can make these items, and probably will rely upon item creation as the most dependable source for their epic items. Thus, reasonable guidelines are needed, for better or worse.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Except that PCs can make these items, and probably will rely upon item creation as the most dependable source for their epic items.

I'm not so sure about that; it's a somewhat circular chain of logic. The only reason PCs rely on item creation at low levels is that the way slots and feats are laid out heavily favors it; you have limited slots, stacking makes certain combinations impractical, and there's no downside to making items for your own use if you have the Feat. There's no reason to assume that Epic levels should work this way; in fact, you could look at it the other way, that the non-Epic item creation rules are currently too easy to rely on. Now, I'm not saying that the x10 for Epic items is reasonable. It isn't. But, assuming that the PCs-make-their-own method should always be dominant isn't really a good way to do things, IMO. Nothing a good economic system can't fix, but with the classic D&D "sell at 50%" system, it's a problem. Of course, that's a big discussion in its own right.

Frankly, I'd rather see the item creation feats done sequentially, which'd solve this whole problem in the first place. But there, you're reaching pretty far into House Rules territory, and it's been covered in other posts before. As it is, I think you at least have to split Craft Wondrous Item into several feats.

 

[Lladnar]

One thing I've been toying with in my mind is that instead of using x10 move the ^2 to ^3 for epic items. That way they start lower (although probably not enough), overlap around about the end of the ELH items and skyrocket after that. To be honest if it wouldn't totally alter the power curve and require a heap of rebalancing I believe that ^3 would work well through out. The lower items stay about the same and you get a smoothed power curve.

Standard (^2 normal, ^2x10 epic*):
1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 360, 490, 640, 810, 1000
Modified (^2 normal, ^3 epic*):
1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 216, 343, 512, 729, 1000
Smoothed (^3 all the way):
1, 8, 27, 64, 125, 216, 343, 512, 729, 1000

* this is with 6+ as epic (like armour/weapons):

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm not so sure about that; it's a somewhat circular chain of logic. The only reason PCs rely on item creation at low levels is that the way slots and feats are laid out heavily favors it; you have limited slots, stacking makes certain combinations impractical, and there's no downside to making items for your own use if you have the Feat. There's no reason to assume that Epic levels should work this way...

Err, maybe. The thing is that epic-level PCs are likely to favor item creation for two reasons:

1) As you suggest, picking up the feats (especially CWI) is quite favored at low levels, meaning that epic-level PCs, what with the cash they have, will cheerfully prefer filling each and every available slot with custom items of death ward, mind blank, and anti-magic field, to name a few (all epic-level winners). IOW, the ability to make your own non-epic items really shines at epic level.

2) Buying epic-level items isn't going to be, and shouldn't be, very easy given a reasonable economic paradigm, unless you're running an "everyone's epic" kind of campaign. The core economic system assumes that only a planar metropolis will carry anything in the way of the kinds of items that epic-level PCs will want; even then, selection is unlikely to be very high. It may well be easier for epic-level PCs to make their own items.

Frankly, I'd rather see the item creation feats done sequentially, which'd solve this whole problem in the first place. But there, you're reaching pretty far into House Rules territory, and it's been covered in other posts before. As it is, I think you at least have to split Craft Wondrous Item into several feats.

Well, yeah. I prefer the AU approach (split items according to use mechanism rather than "type").

 

[Spatzimaus]

1) As you suggest, picking up the feats (especially CWI) is quite favored at low levels, meaning that epic-level PCs, what with the cash they have, will cheerfully prefer filling each and every available slot with custom items of death ward, mind blank, and anti-magic field, to name a few (all epic-level winners). IOW, the ability to make your own non-epic items really shines at epic level.

Well, actually, that's not quite what I was referring to, since each of the items you mention would have to be approved by the DM. What I meant was, characters who can create their own items will never be stuck without a "necessary" item, which is a big advantage over groups that depend on loot, and so the assumption has evolved that groups should always be able to make their own stuff. There are always threads about "why can't the tanks pay their own XP for item creation?" or "can't I make items without spending XP?"; if loot was enough for this, these debates wouldn't be happening.

For example, let's pretend I'm the main Cleric for my group, an old guy named... Velendo. I've got no WIS-enhancing item, even though clearly this'd be a good thing to have, and even though I'm approaching Epic levels. Why? Well, we've been off adventuring a lot, and there aren't exactly 7-11 Magic Shops along the way, no one in the group can make one, and the DM didn't put one in the loot. So, I do without.

At the other extreme, I've seen groups where every player has a homemade stat-boosting item. Sure, the casters might lag a level behind the tanks from all the lost XP, but is the DM going to lower the CR because of that? If there's a way for the tanks to spend XP for item creation, it's even worse.

Well, yeah. I prefer the AU approach (split items according to use mechanism rather than "type").

Actually, I was referring more to a simple split by cost. That is, "Enchant Trinket" makes anything worth 999gp or less (scrolls and potions, mainly), "Enchant Minor Item" is 10k or less, "Enchant Moderate Item" for 50k or less, "Enchant Major Item" for 200k or less, "Enchant Minor Artifact" for 1 million or less, "Enchant Major Artifact" for stuff above that. Each would have an ever-increasing caster level requirement (1/5/10/15/21/35 maybe?) and you'd have to take them sequentially.
You could add a few other explicit limits:
> Minor Item is the first that allows multiple charges (Trinket is only for one-shots)
> Moderate Item is the first that allows slotless items
> Major Item is the first that allows unlimited-use or "always on" items (before this, you can only do X/day items)

But, I wouldn't just split by mechanism; a wand and a scroll activate in different ways, sure, but if you make them require separate feats you won't see many people make wands.