D&D General Creativity?

[RangerWickett]

I mean, I had a modern game where the PCs were in New Orleans on Halloween night when I had an NPC ally get murdered to kick off a mystery plot, and they proposed, y'know, voodoo to talk to his ghost. And I went with it, and the whole campaign got weirder in a good way.

 

[Oofta]

I guess it just depends. Thing is, when I run anything the PCs can do so can also do. So throw sand in someone's eyes (and not just as fluff for an existing ability)? Well, word of the power of pocket sand spreads and soon everyone is wearing goggles.

I don't want play to have video game restrictions, but I also think limitations can make for more interesting and even more creative play. The problem is that "creativity" can often lead to "exploits". If the DM allows something one time, they should allow it all the time. So if you want your barbarian run to and up a wall so that you can attack or grapple that creature that's flying out of reach there will be a check or two, but cool. But grab that plate to deflect a lightning bolt? That's called a dexterity save. If every lightning bolt could be deflected that way, everyone would carry silver plates.

If someone comes up with something creative, I'll try to figure out how to make that happen within the general scope of the rules. But I had a player be creative in the sense that they wanted to run so fast around the BBEG that they created a sand tornado* to blind them ala The Flash.

I like to reward creativity and I'm not a huge stickler for playing exactly by RAW. But there has to be a line somewhere.

*They were in the desert, but the PC was just a monk with the equivalent of a bonus dash action and no magical enhancement to speed.

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm not sure how to handle that as a DM, except I'm the over-the-top creative problem solver at my table, I always figure out the puzzle, the obstacle, thinking outside of the box, rather than the obvious that the DM is trying direct the party into seeing. I'm usually the DM, so I create obstacles and puzzles as creatively, so my puzzles tend to be tougher...

 

[Andvari]

Really depends on the context. There isn't a rule for stepping on somebody's loose weapon on the floor, but of course the player can still do so. If you're wielding a longsword against something resistant to slashing damage, of course you can choose to hit it with the hilt or pommel instead of the blade to deal bludgeoning damage, even if the rules say longswords deal slashing damage. You won't be doing 1d8, though.

 

[Manbearcat]

Creativity <spit>. Curse its name.

It is my Ouija Board. The players may rest their pathetic fingers on the planchette, but only just. If I detect even a hint of a propelling force against mine own...well, they know full well the bargain.

I CAST YOU OUT. THE POWER OF GM FORCE COMPELS YOU.

 

[Lanefan]

So this is fine for a movie. When you play the game of D&D you do, in a general sense, have to follow the rules. It's kind of the point of even playing a game with rules. Though as an Old School gamer, I'm right at the start of the line that says "the scribbles in the books are suggestions". A DM can do whatever they wish, though I have a hard limit on what players can do. It's not really a game if players can just alter reality at will.

Though I do love it when players get creative: When the players use things in the game world reality to accomplish some goal. I clever idea, trick or something like that. Though my hard limit must have things make sense in the game world and the relative power level.

For me it has to make sense in terms of the in-game physics etc. I don't really give a fig about power level.

Like I would nearly never allow a mundane item, like a hand mirror, to deflect the spell lightning bolt. Or use Mage Hand to "wrestle" with another using the spell Telekinesis. Or the D&D movie example: 2nd level Earthen Grasp can stop 5th level Grasping Hand.

I fully agree on the first of these examples. The other two, however - why not? In both cases I'd quickly figure out how "strong" each effect is (i.e. assign each a Strength score if one isn't already listed), then have them roll, in effect, opposed strength checks.

Hence this thread. How far do you go for Player Creativeness? Do you allow them to get away with near anything? If you have a limit, what is it? Do you just let the players have the effect of just casting a wish spell effect? Do you allow the players to alter reality to get out of a jam or sticky spot? Once you establish something that alters reality, like you don't want the PC to die so you let a daring halfling bard deflect a lightning bolt with a silver plate and take no damage. Do you then add that to your house rules? Anyone any time can automatically deflect a lightning bolt spell and take no damage with a mundane silver plate?

What say you?

Unless it's a divine intervention or some other oddball thing, whatever happens once is always repeatable. Thus if hypothetically I allowed a lightning bolt to be deflected by a silver plate once then that would set a precedent for the remainder of that campaign. It ain't gonna happen.

What this means is that I have to be careful in ruling on this sort of thing. That said, were someone to try the Mage Hand vs. Telekinesis idea in my game I'd certaily allow it to have a chance of succeeding - it's a cool idea.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't really have house rules for creativity, I just accept whatever creative solution the players come up with, or I don't. If there was a situation like the movie, I'd totally roll with the player's suggestion of earthen grasp catching bigby's hand, standard saving throws apply.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Creativity <spit>. Curse its name.

It is my Ouija Board. The players may rest their pathetic fingers on the planchette, but only just. If I detect even a hint of a propelling force against mine own...well, they know full well the bargain.

I CAST YOU OUT. THE POWER OF GM FORCE COMPELS YOU.

You say it with sarcasm but honestly it feels like way too many people believe this, but would never say it.

 

[Mad_Jack]

As Andvari said, it's all about the context, and the specific circumstances. I tend to judge each situation individually, but I'm generally open to most shenanigans as long as the proposed effect is congruent with the proposed action. Small actions get small results. Big results require big actions. The limit is pretty much when something starts to seem ridiculous to me - if you want to try some Daniel Craig James Bond stuff you can roll for it if the basic idea sounds at all feasible in that particular situation, but Mission Impossible-level stuff is probably not going to fly and anime or cartoon crap is right out. No sticking your finger in a gun barrel to keep it from firing - but a rock might work.

If you want to use your bonus action or reaction to throw sand in someone's eyes or a drink in their face to try to gain advantage for the turn or give them disadvantage, roll for it. Assuming there's sand where you are, or a drink within reach.

Holding onto the edges of your cloak when you jump off a building is not going to help you prevent falling damage, but if you're trying to jump across to a rooftop lower than you and by RAW the distance is out of your reach by less than ten or fifteen feet, I'd let you make a roll to attempt to use your cloak to get a little extra hang time and alter your trajectory. Expertise in Athletics or Acrobatics? Roll, schmoll - go, ninja! (But you're still not Batman, lol.)

In the case of magic spells, I'd look at both the levels of the spells involved and at what the spells actually do in terms of physical effects.
As for bouncing a lightning bolt off a mirror, I'd rule that you could try to deflect it off in a different direction, but whether you succeed or fail at that, you're still going to have to make your save against the damage.
For the example in the movie, although you could quibble about the fact that one of them is an object made solely of force energy vs the other actually being physical, the idea that you're basically trying to engineer an arm-wrestling contest is fairly sound.
Considering that the spells are only two levels apart, I'd probably rule that the winner of an opposed contest between the spells (maybe each spellcaster has to roll against the other's spell save DC? Advantage on the roll for the higher level spell?) gets to function normally on that turn, basically like a runner breaking through the scrimmage line at a football game. Once the deadlock is broken, if there's still time left in the spell duration and the spell effect is either moveable or still in range, whichever caster lost the contest could try to re-engage on their next turn.
On the other hand (pun intended), no first-level spell is going to have a non-RAW effect on a ninth-level spell - if one of them was using the Mage Hand cantrip to try to go all I-know-kung-fu on a Bigby's Smashing Fist, that's semi-truck vs. squirrel territory right there, and it ain't happening...

 

[Quickleaf]

So the basic question is: What are your house rules for Player Creativity?

So this came in related to the new D&D movie trailer. In a scene the Red Wizard casts a Floating Hand spell at the heroes. One of the heroes casts Earthen Grasp and that hand rushed over to block the Floating Hand. It's a fine bit of CGI and in a generic fantasy movie it's just fine. Though really most movies just alter reality to do whatever they want on a whim anyway. Though a D&D movie is a bit different, as someone is looking in the D&D books for people, places and things. Though we know the movie makers utterly don't care about the D&D rules. They glance at a page and think a 'floating hand of energy' looks and sounds cool....then toss the book away and do whatever they want.

So this is fine for a movie. When you play the game of D&D you do, in a general sense, have to follow the rules. It's kind of the point of even playing a game with rules. Though as an Old School gamer, I'm right at the start of the line that says "the scribbles in the books are suggestions". A DM can do whatever they wish, though I have a hard limit on what players can do. It's not really a game if players can just alter reality at will.

Though I do love it when players get creative: When the players use things in the game world reality to accomplish some goal. I clever idea, trick or something like that. Though my hard limit must have things make sense in the game world and the relative power level. Like I would nearly never allow a mundane item, like a hand mirror, to deflect the spell lightning bolt. Or use Mage Hand to "wrestle" with another using the spell Telekinesis. Or the D&D movie example: 2nd level Earthen Grasp can stop 5th level Grasping Hand.

Though some posters disagreed. They commented that such a thing was just fine in their game. They might do such things often or do an "once in a while" allowance, that I guess they would do over and over and over again.

Hence this thread. How far do you go for Player Creativeness? Do you allow them to get away with near anything? If you have a limit, what is it? Do you just let the players have the effect of just casting a wish spell effect? Do you allow the players to alter reality to get out of a jam or sticky spot? Once you establish something that alters reality, like you don't want the PC to die so you let a daring halfling bard deflect a lightning bolt with a silver plate and take no damage. Do you then add that to your house rules? Anyone any time can automatically deflect a lightning bolt spell and take no damage with a mundane silver plate?

What say you?

I'm willing to go all the way with player creativity. I've learned how to use the rules as guidelines to adjudicate this stuff on the fly.

In regards to Counterspelling specifically, I muuuuch prefer the example you cite from the D&D movie trailer. I've found RAW counterspell problematic when it comes into play too much.

Not currently running 5e, but in my next campaign, one of the house rules I'll probably implement is nixing "counterspell" as a spell, and let any caster take a counterspell reaction so long as the spell they expend is reasonable (in GM's estimation). If you counter with same level spell, make a Spellcasting Ability check DC 9 + spell's level. If you counter with higher level spell, reduce DC by X amount. If you counter with lower level spell, increase DC by X amount.

And if your counterspell check is a 1 or 20 something unexpected happens at the GM's discretion. This is taking Mike Shea's tip for "Harry Potter" style spell duels, which should always be part of narrating a counterspell (and why I love that trailer example you gave), and gives it a bit of mechanical implementation / reminding players that this is not the RAW counterspell spell.